The Canton ( formerly Residences at Classen Curve)

[fortpatches]

...
That generation just doesn't hang out in the Nichols Hills area, of today. Anecdotally, the only time I see 25-year-olds out that way is shopping at LuluLemon. Even then, they're probably only there to return an item that didn't fit - as they order everything online.

...

Personally, I love getting dinner at Hutch or cocktails at The Ellison. I'm not suggesting there aren't plenty of options. Just that the options that are there are too pricey for young people and so young people didn't want to live a the Canton.

...

I don't think it would be considered part of Nichols Hills? My partner and I shop that area frequently and I don't think we have thought about it as Nichols Hills - idk though. I have only lived here like 3years now and am still learning what's around.

Also, that area is not too pricey for young professionals ... I would have considered that an ideal location when I was younger. It is one of the main areas I go to shop - I wish I lived closer to Whole Foods and Trader Joes. Then again, when I lived in Kansas City, I would go shopping at least once a week at the Plaza while living in Westport (where my rent was only like $150/mo cheaper than the Canton). Most of my peers lived either by the Plaza or in Power&Light - both of which have apartments in the same range as the Canton.

And the main reason we bought a house here is because most apartments are a pain when it comes to pets - with additional hundreds of dollars for a pet deposit and hundreds more for pet rent. One apartment that we looked at had a $1,000 pet deposit per pet. By the time it's done, I may as well buy a $350k house and pay my own utilities for the same monthly rate.

[Dob Hooligan]

I don't think it would be considered part of Nichols Hills? My partner and I shop that area frequently and I don't think we have thought about it as Nichols Hills - idk though. I have only lived here like 3years now and am still learning what's around.

Also, that area is not too pricey for young professionals ... I would have considered that an ideal location when I was younger. It is one of the main areas I go to shop - I wish I lived closer to Whole Foods and Trader Joes. Then again, when I lived in Kansas City, I would go shopping at least once a week at the Plaza while living in Westport (where my rent was only like $150/mo cheaper than the Canton). Most of my peers lived either by the Plaza or in Power&Light - both of which have apartments in the same range as the Canton.

And the main reason we bought a house here is because most apartments are a pain when it comes to pets - with additional hundreds of dollars for a pet deposit and hundreds more for pet rent. One apartment that we looked at had a $1,000 pet deposit per pet. By the time it's done, I may as well buy a $350k house and pay my own utilities for the same monthly rate.

Definitely Nichols Hills area. It is the Golden Triangle-in the OKC limits and rules, while having NH snob appeal.

[Rover]

Definitely Nichols Hills area. It is the Golden Triangle-in the OKC limits and rules, while having NH snob appeal.

Glenbrook is not Nichols Hills.
Also love how you reduce everyone to your charachature. Not sure what is worse, a snob, or and anti with a chip on their shoulder. You should actually get to know people before you broadbrush with your rhetoric.

Lots of people love the area because it’s a nice area with nice amenities.

[April in the Plaza]

Glenbrook is not Nichols Hills.
Also love how you reduce everyone to your charachature. Not sure what is worse, a snob, or and anti with a chip on their shoulder. You should actually get to know people before you broadbrush with your rhetoric.

Lots of people love the area because it’s a nice area with nice amenities.

I think he meant that some parts of Glenbrook have Nichols Hills addresses but all of them have OKC utilities and mill rates. And that’s actually not a bad thing. I’ve heard NH got absolutely fleeced in its last negotiation with the utility companies.

[sooner88]

I agree with you. If the target renter is 40+ years and up, then this is a fantastic spot for apartments. I would never suggest that the Whole Foods and other surrounding services are anything less than stellar. And if that was the Canton's objective then I'm surprised we are seeing reports that it wasn't receiving significant interest from renters to be.

Statistics do show that renters, especially apartment renters, skew young - and I'm not just pulling that out of a hat to be argumentative. And please know, I'm not a real estate developer and I don't claim to be anything more than someone with an uneducated opinion!

My belief is that most renters in OKC skew towards young millennials and gen Z folks. Unlike larger metros, the cost of living is cheap here and the barrier to become a home owner is low. Which would support the theory that apartment seekers in OKC are even younger than in other areas.

That generation just doesn't hang out in the Nichols Hills area, of today. Anecdotally, the only time I see 25-year-olds out that way is shopping at LuluLemon. Even then, they're probably only there to return an item that didn't fit - as they order everything online.

I keep seeing comments from other posters of how great this area was and all these cool former bars. It's not that anymore. If you're under 30, the hangout is uptown, midtown, plaza, paseo, bricktown, Western (kinda), Chisolm, Edmond main street, etc. Those densely packed areas with amazing food and beverage options didn't exist back in the 80s and 90s when you were bar crawling near Classen Curve.

Personally, I love getting dinner at Hutch or cocktails at The Ellison. I'm not suggesting there aren't plenty of options. Just that the options that are there are too pricey for young people and so young people didn't want to live a the Canton.

Again, I don't know jack I'm just hypothesizing here.

I have friends in their early 20s to mid 30s who were all quick to sign a lease here as soon as they were able to. It sounds like you live in a little bit of a bubble, this area is frequented and heavily desired by all age groups.

[aDark]

I have friends in their early 20s to mid 30s who were all quick to sign a lease here as soon as they were able to. It sounds like you live in a little bit of a bubble, this area is frequented and heavily desired by all age groups.

I do live in a bubble. Plus, I'm in my mid thirties in a duel-income w/ kids situation so I'm not the target audience for The Canton, anyhow. We like that area, for what it's worth.

[thunderbird]

I have friends in their early 20s to mid 30s who were all quick to sign a lease here as soon as they were able to. It sounds like you live in a little bit of a bubble, this area is frequented and heavily desired by all age groups.

I thought the statement from the apartment group said that no leases had been signed yet?

[HangryHippo]

I do live in a bubble. Plus, I'm in my mid thirties in a duel-income w/ kids situation so I'm not the target audience for The Canton, anyhow. We like that area, for what it's worth.

Duel-income? Fighting over money is rough.

[Dob Hooligan]

Glenbrook is not Nichols Hills.
Also love how you reduce everyone to your charachature. Not sure what is worse, a snob, or and anti with a chip on their shoulder. You should actually get to know people before you broadbrush with your rhetoric.

Lots of people love the area because it’s a nice area with nice amenities.

Maybe it was late when you read my comment? I'm the biggest NH cheerleader on earth. I've spent all my 60 plus years in the area. I suggested Glenbrook to a good friend last week who is thinking about leaving the Gaillardia home they built 20 plus years ago. A friend since junior high moved there a couple years ago because he was tired of the traffic on Avondale. Another friend built there last year and moved from Crown Heights. It is a great enclave.

But...Classen Curve was developed to be marketed as Nichols Hills area. Like all areas surrounding NH, it is being enhanced by the growing number of people who want to be in and near the wonderful, but land locked city.

[Pete]

This is from oklip955:

I will answer you on this (post 183)First, I am a retired firefighter from a metro area dept who workd as a fire apparatus driver for 27 yrs. (that means I fought fire and drove big red trucks including ladder trucks so I feel I can speak a bit about this. I also have my BS degree in Fire Protection and Safety). When we respond to a structure fire, we first try to attack the fire from the interior and search the building for any persons still inside. Our first priority is to saves lives then property. When conditions deteriorate, or the fire has already progressed beyond what is considered safe for interior crews, they exit the structure and the fire is then fought from the exterior. Many times the fire is already at a point where the structural integrity has been compromised to the point when it is unsafe for interior firefighting operations. One of the problems with multistory structures is the ability to quickly place fire attack lines into operation. A building built mainly of wood presents a huge load of combustible materials. Ie things that burn and burn quickly. A residential structure like this is built with a fire sprinkler system to slow or stop the spread if a fire does occur. The goal is also to provide for life safety of the occupants. This type of construction is a real challenge to fight especially when the sprinkler system is not operational which happens during the construction phase. These buildings are also equipped with a standpipe systems. Its basically a large diameter pipe for use during firefighting operations for firefighters to pump water to at a connection outside the structure that goes up to each floor. Firefighters then can hook up their hoses to the connections. If this system is not working then firefighters must drag heavy, large diameter hoses up the stairwell to supply smaller hand firefighting lines. You have to understand that firefighters wear, heavy bunker gear (protective clothing) and breathing apparatus. A fully outfitted firefighter’s gear can weigh 50lbs or so depending on brand of equipment, size of firefighter etc. and this is in addition to any hose or other equipment they are carrying or working with. It takes time to set up firefighting operations on a multistory building especially one without a working standpipe. During this time the fire continues to build.

As the fire grows, so does the amount of water needed to control the fire. When the determination is made to fight the fire from the exterior then huge quantities of water are need. The goal is no longer to save the building but to prevent spread to other surrounding structures. Ladder trucks with prepiped arial firefighting nozzles and other large flow nozzles are used. The capacity of these are generally around 1000 gal per min. each, and many times with multiple fire streams in operation at the same time. That’s a lot of water and a lot of weight. (water weighs 8.3 lbs per gal). We have to worry about structural collapse either from the fire weakening the structure or from the weight of the water being applied. Building are not designed to handle the flow from large exterior high flow operations because at this point the building already compromised by the fire. Its just not possible to design for this. The building is already gone or soon will be. The goal at this point to prevent spread to other structures as well as life safety in the area around the structure. These operations involve long periods of time on large structures. I hope this post will bring some understanding to what went on and why its done. I just want explain a bit about firefighting operations so that you can understand a bit about this fire. I was not there nor have I talked with anyone who has. My explanations is generalities of firefighting operations. And no I was not on Oklahoma City but a suburban fire dept and am now retired.

[Martin]

that is some great detail there. my biggest takeaway was the flow rate from the ladder truck... 1000 gal/min with water weighing 8.3 gal/lb... that's delivering 8300lbs/min! crazy!

[gopokes88]

It makes zero logical sense to think that this one very well located and nice development would not be able to sign leases when every other apartment complex in town is nearly full.

Especially because of the area and the almost complete lack of rental units.

It's all insurance/loss posturing. Leaks from one side trying to maximize loss, leaks from the other trying to minimize it.

[gopokes88]

This seems inexcusable... a while I realize a fire hose puts out a large amount of water, the weight of the water from a torrential downpour covering EVERY square inch of the roof would almost certainly be more. The water & weight from the firehouse should drain off in the same manner a thunderstorm would. This project should not be allowed to be rebuilt exactly as-is IMHO. Design considerations for fire safety & firefighter access should be taken in to account... god forbid hundreds of families were living here at the time.

Keep in mind you're leaving out the fire.

The roof collapsed because of fire + water. Fire weakened it, water weight finished the job.

The engineering behind it only accounts for fire + water = can stand for XXXX amount of time to get people out.

You can't build things so they don't collapse when they catch on fire.

[Rover]

Keep in mind you're leaving out the fire.

The roof collapsed because of fire + water. Fire weakened it, water weight finished the job.

The engineering behind it only accounts for fire + water = can stand for XXXX amount of time to get people out.

You can't build things so they don't collapse when they catch on fire.

An occupied building also has an internal fire suppression system. This was unoccupied and not yet functioning.

Also, you can design building to not collapse, but would be concrete construction with great fire breaks. But, cost would be much more expensive. Most on here already cry about the high prices of rents and don't seem willing to pay for the extra safety.

In reality, even this building stayed structurally in tact for quite awhile. Had there been residents, they should have had plenty of time to escape. There were only 5 floors, so it isn't like they would have had to escape down 30-40 floors of a burning building.

[oklip955]

Keep in mind that is not the first time a building like this burned in the same manor. I have not been keeping track but I do remember others on some of my fire service news reports of similar sized or larger apartment complexes in other parts of the country experiencing similar outcomes. If memory serves me correct, I think there was another as large or larger complex that burned within the last year or two in the Dallas area. I would have to go back and research the information. Also in Edmond we had a similar apartment building with similar type of construction burn a few years ago. I happened to be in the area and did watch that one That one was at about the same point of completion.

[HangryHippo]

You can't build things so they don't collapse when they catch on fire.

Uh… you can.

[chssooner]

Uh… you can.

Cost-benefit, my man. There are other features that, one occupied, would have helped with this fire. But until it's occupied, cost-benefit needs to apply.

[oklip955]

Its all about the cost. How much they have in vs the rent it will generate. A similar argument is residential fire sprinkler systems. They are designed to control small fires, limit damage and allow occupants to exit the building. This is not the same design as you would find in an office building or retail. The costs are not excessive vs the overall building cost of a residence. Ok so why are we NOT putting them in homes. I dont have a system in mine but have looked at retro fitting, I am on a well so it does present some design issues but can be done. Now those homes in subdivisions on city water, why not? It goes back to cost. Its really an aesthetics issue with the heads, its just an added cost that builders dont want. It seems that many of the new subdivisions cut some corners and just want to put the "nice things" in that are visible. Smoke alarms (that are working, change your batteries twice a year please and test them monthly) as well as fire sprinkler systems save lives. We have know this for an extremely long time. When will be learn not to burn!!!!

[HangryHippo]

Cost-benefit, my man. There are other features that, one occupied, would have helped with this fire. But until it's occupied, cost-benefit needs to apply.

Valid, but it can be done. Should it be is a whole other can of worms.

[Rover]

Keep in mind that is not the first time a building like this burned in the same manor. I have not been keeping track but I do remember others on some of my fire service news reports of similar sized or larger apartment complexes in other parts of the country experiencing similar outcomes. If memory serves me correct, I think there was another as large or larger complex that burned within the last year or two in the Dallas area. I would have to go back and research the information. Also in Edmond we had a similar apartment building with similar type of construction burn a few years ago. I happened to be in the area and did watch that one That one was at about the same point of completion.

During construction there are always hazards to watch for. There are sometimes piles of materials. There are brazing torches. There are temporary electrical connections. Etc., etc. Any failure to deal with the hazards properly can result in a catastrophic event. Safety on job site is extremely important. Once construction is complete and all systems function properly and have been inspected to confirm all safety standards are met, the risk goes down. Safeties are built into the system.

[soonerguru]

I agree with you. If the target renter is 40+ years and up, then this is a fantastic spot for apartments. I would never suggest that the Whole Foods and other surrounding services are anything less than stellar. And if that was the Canton's objective then I'm surprised we are seeing reports that it wasn't receiving significant interest from renters to be.

Statistics do show that renters, especially apartment renters, skew young - and I'm not just pulling that out of a hat to be argumentative. And please know, I'm not a real estate developer and I don't claim to be anything more than someone with an uneducated opinion!

My belief is that most renters in OKC skew towards young millennials and gen Z folks. Unlike larger metros, the cost of living is cheap here and the barrier to become a home owner is low. Which would support the theory that apartment seekers in OKC are even younger than in other areas.

That generation just doesn't hang out in the Nichols Hills area, of today. Anecdotally, the only time I see 25-year-olds out that way is shopping at LuluLemon. Even then, they're probably only there to return an item that didn't fit - as they order everything online.

I keep seeing comments from other posters of how great this area was and all these cool former bars. It's not that anymore. If you're under 30, the hangout is uptown, midtown, plaza, paseo, bricktown, Western (kinda), Chisolm, Edmond main street, etc. Those densely packed areas with amazing food and beverage options didn't exist back in the 80s and 90s when you were bar crawling near Classen Curve.

Personally, I love getting dinner at Hutch or cocktails at The Ellison. I'm not suggesting there aren't plenty of options. Just that the options that are there are too pricey for young people and so young people didn't want to live a the Canton.

Again, I don't know jack I'm just hypothesizing here.

I think your entire post answers your initial question: This development is probably not targeting twentysomethings. Clearly, if they are priced out of reach of that demo, then that is further confirmation. And yes, in OKC us olds usually buy, not rent, but for the myriad reasons mentioned above, sometimes renting is preferable. It's nice to have an adult option with adult amenities available that caters to adults.

[onthestrip]

Its all about the cost. How much they have in vs the rent it will generate. A similar argument is residential fire sprinkler systems. They are designed to control small fires, limit damage and allow occupants to exit the building. This is not the same design as you would find in an office building or retail. The costs are not excessive vs the overall building cost of a residence. Ok so why are we NOT putting them in homes. I dont have a system in mine but have looked at retro fitting, I am on a well so it does present some design issues but can be done. Now those homes in subdivisions on city water, why not? It goes back to cost. Its really an aesthetics issue with the heads, its just an added cost that builders dont want. It seems that many of the new subdivisions cut some corners and just want to put the "nice things" in that are visible. Smoke alarms (that are working, change your batteries twice a year please and test them monthly) as well as fire sprinkler systems save lives. We have know this for an extremely long time. When will be learn not to burn!!!!

Probably looking at $8-10,000 in extra costs per home, not to mention the required larger water meter that would increase your typical city water bill $100 or so a month. All for very little increased safety. These things arent done in single family homes because its very easy to escape from them once there is fire or when your smoke alarm goes off. The costs dont justify the small benefits. Youre certainly free to do as you please in your own home though.

[oklip955]

The systems current cost I cannot quate. No not a larger water meter. The design flow is for one or two heads. These are not the larger flows that you would see in a commercial building. Yes its is increased safety. I have watched in person a house build that had a residential fire sprinkler system in which a test burn was done. They will usually extinguish or at least control the fire. Typically in a residential fire you have only 3 ot 4 min to exit the structure (Ie the need for working smoke detectors) before conditions become untenable. Sorry but I having trained on the job with structures donated for live fire burns, I can speak on this. I have 32 years total structural firefighting experience. Some insurance companies will give a rate reduction for residential fire sprinkler systems. Note these are not the systems you find in a Walmart or office building. They are piped off of the domestic water supply system in the house.

[soonerguru]

I thought the statement from the apartment group said that no leases had been signed yet?

I have not seen that anywhere other than people quoting News 9. Seems like an erroneous report.

[gopokes88]

An occupied building also has an internal fire suppression system. This was unoccupied and not yet functioning.

Also, you can design building to not collapse, but would be concrete construction with great fire breaks. But, cost would be much more expensive. Most on here already cry about the high prices of rents and don't seem willing to pay for the extra safety.

In reality, even this building stayed structurally in tact for quite awhile. Had there been residents, they should have had plenty of time to escape. There were only 5 floors, so it isn't like they would have had to escape down 30-40 floors of a burning building.

Not to mention the fire on the roof was a rubber fire and burns extremely hot