Lindsey Street

[Geographer]

Football traffic and its congestion absolutely does have a place in the discussions as can be seen when the topic has been discussed by various OU, City, state and federal officials many times in various official settings over the years....

These people know there are very real and very valid reasons why its an important topic.

From strictly a safety and security stand point game day congestion is something that is taken extremely seriously, just as it should be by appropriate officials. In the event of a large emergency Lindsey street is one of the most important streets for emergency traffic and for possible evacuations.

A one lane Lindsey street that I was responding to doesn’t even come close to adequately meeting the desired outcome....In fact its ridiculous to think that a one lane road fits our future needs..A one lane road with roundabouts would significantly slow emergency services and slow normal traffic.
When it comes to emergency services, peoples lives and property will have a much higher priority than anything else, just as they should. But if for no other reason than Norman’s future growth, on this, the city got this one right! It's now time to start plans on building to Elm street for many of the same reasons as above.

PS: in the 42 years that I have been attending OU football games mostly from 100+ miles out of town just getting in and out of town has become far more time consuming... But I have rarely used Lindsey on game-day. I snake around on mostly residential streets. For the many hundreds of millions that have been brought into Norman because of football over the years its well worth not taking this for granted.

When its going to make every day life in Norman better a few additional million to make the trip a little better for our visitors is a nice friendly investment that leaves a better lasting impression on the day when the most people from out of town are in our community.

I'm just saying...game day traffic has NOT been brought up at any of the meetings that I have been do.

David Boren didn't mention it once during his mini-speeches at the livable lindsay workshops.

I am not saying that I favor a 2 lane road instead of 4 lanes, but what I am saying is that it's ludicrous to plan for an event that happens 1.6% of the year.

[soonerguru]

Safety is important, obviously, but the concern about Game Day traffic should be viewed within the context of only being an issue six times a year. Issues about the other 359 days a year should be weighted accordingly.

[ou48A]

I'm just saying...game day traffic has NOT been brought up at any of the meetings that I have been do.

David Boren didn't mention it once during his mini-speeches at the livable lindsay workshops.

I am not saying that I favor a 2 lane road instead of 4 lanes, but what I am saying is that it's ludicrous to plan for an event that happens 1.6% of the year.

Safety is important, obviously, but the concern about Game Day traffic should be viewed within the context of only being an issue six times a year. Issues about the other 359 days a year should be weighted accordingly.

But that 1.6% of the year has a real big impact on what goes on at OU for 365 days a year.

I don't think very many here grasp the full extent that OU football drives donations to the entire university and also to student enrollment.
I guarantee you that top OU officials are very aware of this factor.
A healthy OU is vital to the city of Norman. Keeping these donors happy and coming back helps....
It's actually a very cheap additional investment when all things considered.

[soonerguru]

When its going to make every day life in Norman better a few additional million to make the trip a little better for our visitors is a nice friendly investment that leaves a better lasting impression on the day when the most people from out of town are in our community.

Wouldn't it make more of an impression on visitors to pass through an attractive, vibrant city street -- perhaps making them want to get out of their cars and explore -- than simply getting them in and out of Norman as fast as possible?

[soonerguru]

But that 1.6% of the year has a real big impact on what goes on at OU for 365 days a year.

I don't think very many here grasp the full extent that OU football drives donations to the entire university and also to student enrollment.

What a ridiculous statement. As a Norman native, I'm personally quite aware of the economic impact of Game Day. I'm sure the people who make residence in Norman who are commenting on this issue are also quite aware.

Have you considered that a healthier, more vibrant and attractive Lindsey Street corridor would add to Norman's economic development as well? Let's face it: Lindsey is flat out ugly and is a poor representation of what is otherwise a very attractive city. I know many merchants in Norman and for some of them, Game Day is no boon; sometimes it's actually a hindrance. There should be a broader focus than traffic on one single artery six times a year.

[ou48A]

Wouldn't it make more of an impression on visitors to pass through an attractive, vibrant city street -- perhaps making them want to get out of their cars and explore -- than simply getting them in and out of Norman as fast as possible?

I think we are getting a lot of that^ with the planed improvements. (eventually)
I’m pretty happy with this phase of Lindsey street.
It's close to the best solution possible when everything is considered.
It certainly is a lot better than it was and its a lot better than the original planed improvement.

[Just the facts]

So let me ask you ou48A, how wide do you think Lindsey needs to be for free-flowing traffic on game day? I know you said 4 lanes earlier, but do you think that is enough?

[venture]

Update in the Transcript today: Roundabout discussion going in circles » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Boren and Lindsey Street Businesses WANT the roundabout solution. It seems that City Council is evenly divided right now. The many opponent appears to be the city engineers and Tom Kovach. Tom Kovach is setting himself up to get booted out of office in a year and a half and there are definitely going to be calls for the mayor to evaluate who she has in the engineers office and maybe it is a time for change.

President Boren is being pretty stern that he wants a walkable boulevard for Lindsey and not the city engineer's plan at all. If ANYONE is going to be concerned about the interests of OU, I would think it would be him. Why is it he wants the roundabout solution but other people not directly involved with the interests of the university are against it?

Some clips from the story...

University of Oklahoma President David Boren urged council members to make Lindsey Street a boulevard instead of an arterial highway. The discussion came on the heels of an analysis and report by the city design team steering the city away from a proposal for roundabouts at three intersections along west Lindsey Street.

Several stakeholders who own or operate businesses on Lindsey Street said they support the vision proposed by Burden, but the city design team said roundabouts are not feasible.

Attorney Harold Heiple who represents the Norman Developers Council, wrote council members saying he supports roundabouts for Lindsey Street.

“As I understand the city staff analysis, it appears to me that the Burden proposal cannot be accomplished using a two-lane roundabout design because of the amount of land required for the two-lane design,” Heiple wrote. “However, instead of walking away from roundabouts, consider the original Burden proposal for one-lane roundabouts at Murphy, McGee, Wylie and Berry and a U-turn signal for westbound Lindsey traffic at 24th.”

Several council members appear to be on board for including, or at least seriously considering, the use of roundabouts on Lindsey.

Boren said the built environment will affect how that environment is used.


“I would urge you to think long-term,” Boren said.

And so far the one opponent on Council...

Council member Tom Kovach said project plans are well under way. A public vote supported a widened version of Lindsey, and the city analysis does not support roundabouts as a feasible option in this instance.


“There’s only so much you can do to a train moving down the track,” Kovach said.

[venture]

But that 1.6% of the year has a real big impact on what goes on at OU for 365 days a year.

I don't think very many here grasp the full extent that OU football drives donations to the entire university and also to student enrollment.
I guarantee you that top OU officials are very aware of this factor.
A healthy OU is vital to the city of Norman. Keeping these donors happy and coming back helps....
It's actually a very cheap additional investment when all things considered.

Is David Boren not a top OU official?

[ou48A]

What a ridiculous statement. As a Norman native, I'm personally quite aware of the economic impact of Game Day. I'm sure the people who make residence in Norman who are commenting on this issue are also quite aware.

Have you considered that a healthier, more vibrant and attractive Lindsey Street corridor would add to Norman's economic development as well? Let's face it: Lindsey is flat out ugly and is a poor representation of what is otherwise a very attractive city. I know many merchants in Norman and for some of them, Game Day is no boon; sometimes it's actually a hindrance. There should be a broader focus than traffic on one single artery six times a year.

Game-day in Norman is not just one day event, one year event, or even a decade event.

It's has a life time impact. Pride in football stokes donations and spending that has amounted to billions over the years coming from many places around the nation.

This money has circulated though out the entire community making Norman a much better place for everybody to live even if you don't like OU or its football team. But very clearly football drive's many donations and helps with enrollment.

But adding to Norman's economic development is the goal. Someday OU will expand its stadium further adding more money into our local economy. Lets plan for it now where we reasonably can.... I believe the new Lindsey plan does that + more.

Keeping Norman a nice place with good streets for our game day visitors attracts new residents. It may be their best look at Norman for many years and the impressions they leave with are important.

I personalty know of at least a dozen couples who moved to Norman to retire because they thought it was a nice place. They all enjoy OU sports. Many of these people have a life time of savings to invest in our community. These people were frequent visors to Norman We need to keep their experience as happy as we can if we want people like them to continue moving to Norman. As I said Lindsey Street is actually a very cheap additional investment and it will improve Norman 365

[Just the facts]

Mayor Cindy Rosenthal said if traffic is to be encouraged away from Lindsey, the city needs to ask where that traffic will be absorbed.

I know this is hard for some people to understand - but it simply goes away and doesn't materialize else ware, in part, because people who once drove start walking or riding a bike to near-by destinations.

[ou48A]

So let me ask you ou48A, how wide do you think Lindsey needs to be for free-flowing traffic on game day? I know you said 4 lanes earlier, but do you think that is enough?

The experts have determined that 4 lanes are appropriate for this area.... I don't know why that wouldn’t be unreasonable....

[soonerguru]

Game-day in Norman is not just one day event, one year event, or even a decade event.

It's has a life time impact. Pride in football stokes donations and spending that has amounted to billions over the years coming from many places around the nation.

This money has circulated though out the entire community making Norman a much better place for everybody to live even if you don't like OU or its football team. But very clearly football drive's many donations and helps with enrollment.

But adding to Norman's economic development is the goal. Someday OU will expand its stadium further adding more money into our local economy. Lets plan for it now where we reasonably can.... I believe the new Lindsey plan does that + more.

Keeping Norman a nice place with good streets for our game day visitors attracts new residents. It may be their best look at Norman for many years and the impressions they leave with are important.

I personalty know of at least a dozen couples who moved to Norman to retire because they thought it was a nice place. They all enjoy OU sports. Many of these people have a life time of savings to invest in our community. These people were frequent visors to Norman We need to keep their experience as happy as we can if we want people like them to continue moving to Norman. As I said Lindsey Street is actually a very cheap additional investment and it will improve Norman 365

So it seems we agree, I guess. Hard to say. But to your point, as Venture79 points out, David Boren wants the roundabout design, and David Boren is the greatest fundraiser in the history of OU or the state, so I'll go with him on this matter as it relates to OU and OU's future.

[ou48A]

Is David Boren not a top OU official?

Yes and Boren is very aware of how OU football drives donations to the entire university and also how it impacts the student enrollment.
That's what I was indicating

[soonerguru]

Yes and Boren is very aware of how OU football drives donations to the entire university and also how it impacts the student enrollment.
That's what I was indicating

So how do you square that knowing that Boren's preference is for the idea you seem to oppose? I'm thoroughly confused.

[venture]

Yes and Boren is very aware of how OU football drives donations to the entire university and also how it impacts the student enrollment.
That's what I was indicating

Oh...so you agree with the roundabout design that BOREN SUPPORTS, is that correct?

[ou48A]

So how do you square that knowing that Boren's preference is for the idea you seem to oppose? I'm thoroughly confused.

I am not necessary anti roundabout.
I need to see more about how it would specifically impact Lindsey Street.
But they would likely require 2 lanes in each direction to really be effective as the real long term solution that Boren speaks of. This will be particularly true if we see the redevelopment along Lindsey that everybody is hoping for.

[ou48A]

Oh...so you agree with the roundabout design that BOREN SUPPORTS, is that correct?

That's not what I said at all on that post.
You are back to you old ways of inventing things and putting words in other people mouth,which is pretty discussing behavior.

[soonerguru]

So who can tell me about this Tom Kovach guy? Is he one of the progressives or one of the tea partiers? I'm not really up on Norman politics.

[ou48A]

Oh...so you agree with the roundabout design that BOREN SUPPORTS, is that correct?

Boren also said that he wants something done on Lindsey from Barry to Elm.... !
That would disturb the area that you cherish so much.

[Just the facts]

Does this thread remind anyone of the scene in 'City Slickers' - no, not the Yeehaw scene... the one where Mitch is trying to explain to Phil how to program the VCR but Phil just doesn't get it and on the last attempt to explain it Ed flips out and starts yelling that he (Phil) is never going to get it and even the cows understand it by now?



This thread has become like that.

[venture]

That's not what I said at all on that post.
You are back to you old ways of inventing things and putting words in other people mouth,which is pretty discussing behavior.

Yet you just pointed out that you support the direction that OU leadership if given on this and trust in their judgement - yet they support the roundabouts. Not reinventing anything, just pointing out the confusion your position is creating because we are being served conflicting statements.

[venture]

Does this thread remind anyone of the scene in 'City Slickers' - no, not the Yeehaw scene... the one where Mitch is trying to explain to Phil how to program the VCR but Phil just doesn't get it and on the last attempt to explain it Ed flips out and starts yelling that he (Phil) is never going to get it and even the cows understand it by now?

This thread has become like that.

LOL so true. Sigh. I was thinking more...

[ou48A]

So who can tell me about this Tom Kovach guy? Is he one of the progressives or one of the tea partiers? I'm not really up on Norman politics.

He has some decent ideas and is pretty smart but he would be considered as some one who is extremely left by any reasonable standard.

[ou48A]

Yet you just pointed out that you support the direction that OU leadership if given on this and trust in their judgement - yet they support the roundabouts. Not reinventing anything, just pointing out the confusion your position is creating because we are being served conflicting statements.

He may have good advisers but Boren is not an expert on road designs.