Lindsey Street

[ou48A]

I needed some comic relief today. And...

...this

thread

DELIVERS!

Yep, different day different thread but its the the fantasy world coming to life again!

[soonerguru]

I'll let you have the last word here. Ahem.

[ou48A]

Roundabouts or not …. now that we have a reasonably decent idea about what they will be building on Lindsey and its improvement .... It's really probably time to move on and decide on how Lindsey should be rebuilt from Elm to Barry..... since Boren say they should do something with that stretch of Lindsey too?

[venture]

Roundabouts or not …. now that we have a reasonably decent idea about what they will be building on Lindsey and its improvement .... It's really probably time to move on and decide on how Lindsey should be rebuilt from Elm to Barry..... since Boren say they should do something with that stretch of Lindsey too?

Logical solution would be maintain 2 lanes through there but string smaller roundabouts to eliminate all traffic lights. Speed limit right now is 25 mph (when traffic is moving)...roundabouts would normally take it down to about 20 mph but keep traffic moving until the next hang up. That hung up is going to be on campus and OU needs to address that. Smaller roundabouts would also allow minimal right of way purchasing and keep capacity inline to handle 20,000+ vehicles a day.

[Just the facts]

Roundabouts or not …. now that we have a reasonably decent idea about what they will be building on Lindsey and its improvement .... It's really probably time to move on and decide on how Lindsey should be rebuilt from Elm to Barry..... since Boren say they should do something with that stretch of Lindsey too?

Curbs, bike lanes, wide sidewalks on both sides of the street, decorative crosswalks, and replace the stop lights with roundabouts. If they do something between Elm and Jenkins I recommend bike lanes, decorative raised crosswalks, and a couple of HAWK systems.

Here in Jax they took all the stop lights off of San Marco Blvd just south of downtown and put in roundabouts and all I can say is wow - it is 1000X better. I'll take some pictures next time I am down there (which is every few days). In Google Street view you can still see how it used to be.

[Plutonic Panda]

Curbs, bike lanes, wide sidewalks on both sides of the street, decorative crosswalks, and replace the stop lights with roundabouts. If they do something between Elm and Jenkins I recommend bike lanes, decorative raised crosswalks, and a couple of HAWK systems.

Here in Jax they took all the stop lights off of San Marco Blvd just south of downtown and put in roundabouts and all I can say is wow - it is 1000X better. I'll take some pictures next time I am down there (which is every few days). In Google Street view you can still see how it used to be.

What is that?

[ou48A]

Curbs, bike lanes, wide sidewalks on both sides of the street, decorative crosswalks, and replace the stop lights with roundabouts. If they do something between Elm and Jenkins I recommend bike lanes, decorative raised crosswalks, and a couple of HAWK systems.

The problem with sidewalks and bike paths in the right-of-way in question is that there isn't enough room without removing of many of the old trees that grow in or very near the right-of-way.

New bike paths and new side walks on both sides of the street would seriously encroach on several existing homes. It would drastically change how things look by very seriously damaging the tree canopy that some want the preserve.

Since this is a very important part of the gateway into OU doing this right is very important.
Purchasing more right-of-way on the north side lets you do this the right way and in a way that will look far better than it does now. More right-of-way also lets you better sever the public.

By buying only on the north it lets you preserve both the canopy and charm of the homes on the south side street and it would not encroach those homes. The trees can be replanted on the north side, new wide side walks can be built on both sides of the street along with room for a bike path. But all this requires more right-of-way and if you are going to buy more right-of-way your easily going to have enough room to build 4 lanes of traffic to better serve the community.

I would love to see a boulevard like street lined with crape myrtles, trees that have colorful fall and spring foliage and other appropriate vegetation...Heck, an extension of Legacy trail might even be possible But no real improvement that amounts to anything more than a band aid is really feasible without additional right-of-way. Even the roundabouts would need more room.

[venture]

The problem with sidewalks and bike paths in the right-of-way in question is that there isn't enough room without removing of many of the old trees that grow in or very near the right-of-way.

Depending on where the trees are, chances are you'll be able to save most of them. It isn't like we need to go through with right-of-way area and just chop everything down and start over. That would be fiscally irresponsible if we don't use what is available.

New bike paths and new side walks on both sides of the street would seriously encroach on several existing homes. It would drastically change how things look by very seriously damaging the tree canopy that some want the preserve.

Which is going to make any right of way acquisition very difficult to get through.

Since this is a very important part of the gateway into OU doing this right is very important.
Purchasing more right-of-way on the north side lets you do this the right way and in a way that will look far better than it does now. More right-of-way also lets you better sever the public.

And we are back to picking on the north side of the street. There might be a way to balance acquisition on both sides of the street by realigning Lindsey a bit.

By buying only on the north it lets you preserve both the canopy and charm of the homes on the south side street and it would not encroach those homes. The trees can be replanted on the north side, new wide side walks can be built on both sides of the street along with room for a bike path. But all this requires more right-of-way and if you are going to buy more right-of-way your easily going to have enough room to build 4 lanes of traffic to better serve the community.

Exactly how much does it cost to replant a 30' or taller tree? Those are OLD trees and not something that can be replaced with a little twig that will take decades to even get close to the same size. Also it is time to back off the 4-lane road idea. It is very unlikely it'll happen and would be pointless since OU won't add another lane trough their portion. There is no need for 4-lanes and it is an assinine idea to even suggest it for there. With roundabouts replacing traffic lights you'll be able to serve a much higher volume of traffic...up until you reach campus and cross walk lights start backing it up.

I would love to see a boulevard like street lined with crape myrtles, trees that have colorful fall and spring foliage and other appropriate vegetation...Heck, an extension of Legacy trail might even be possible But no real improvement that amounts to anything more than a band aid is really feasible without additional right-of-way. Even the roundabouts would need more room.

Additional right-of-way is a given...it just comes down to how much. With your "tear down the north" plan you are looking at roughly $3.5 million in property acquisition costs to buy up all the properties (except for the one at Lindsey & Elm on the NW corner). The same amount it would cost, roughly, to make Lindsey traffic light free with roundabouts...in an area that would be much better served by them.

If we utilized as much existing footprint as possible, as well as added bike lanes and average sidewalks (there really just isn't the room for 10' sidewalks in places of that stretch)...that will reduce the impacted properties significantly.

[David]

Okay, that was weird.

Anyway, I've been watching the presentation a few pages back and I finally got to the Lindsey roundabout examples at around 52 minutes in. Here's a link that should get you to about where it starts: Dan Burden: Livable Lindsey Street Workshop - YouTube.

[venture]

Okay, that was weird.

Anyway, I've been watching the presentation a few pages back and I finally got to the Lindsey roundabout examples at around 52 minutes in. Here's a link that should get you to about where it starts: Dan Burden: Livable Lindsey Street Workshop - YouTube.

Thanks for posting the shortcut! I would hope those that are sharing their two cents on this topic took the time to view the video so they are educated on what is being proposed.

[Just the facts]

High Intensity Activated Crosswalk

[Plutonic Panda]

Now that's pretty cool. Why aren't they building these everywhere? Seeing as how Edmond likely spent a fortune on their lights on the new Covell and Kelly, it wouldn't be much more to have included these. I would only assume bikes on bike lanes would stop at these as well. . .

[Just the facts]

Lots of places are putting them in. Tucson, AZ has more than 60 installed. I use one in Atlanta when I walk to lunch. They are very similar to the crosswalks in England except our cars are going much faster so we need an over kill on the visual warning. They just have a striped pole with a yellow light on top. They are called zebra poles.

[Plutonic Panda]

I noticed they have them in Tucson. A surprisingly number of people completely ignored the red light though.

[Dubya61]

There's a crosswalk and school zone by the Del City High School that has lots of flashing lights, but it's not a Hawk crosswalk. There's a crosswalk in Norman on Porter / Classen (I never know which name the street is using) near the Greyhound stop that is surprisingly well lit, as well. Short of building a Hawk crosswalk, lighting it up like in Del City and Norman did in those two instances seems smart.

[Just the facts]

Sometimes trees have to come down for the greater good.

[ou48A]

Sometimes trees have to come down for the greater good.

I agree and I believe this is one such case.
In time it could be made to look like a walk / bike / drive by botanical garden & arboretum.
That's doing this right IMHO but it takes room. This is an investment in our long term futuer.

[LocoAko]

I posted this in the Going Dutch thread but I think this is exactly what Lindsey street should go with.

I was floored with the number of bikes around OU. Every single bike rack was full! (That means you need a lot more bike racks as well).

If there was a lane separated bike route all along Lindsey, you'd see significant ridership on Lindsey.




On edit:

In fact, if you did that, I think you'd have a new problem on your hands...you'd have an actual bike road where more people eventually start using it for biking than for driving. There are just far, far too many cyclists down around the school for me not to think that would happen. I think Norman has a really cool opportunity on their hands.

Something like that Dutch street would be AWESOME on Lindsey. Oh man. (Or anywhere in Norman, really).

[Geographer]

I was just down on Lindsey today and on the campus. Man, those streetlights need to go. The primary cause of the congestion was the existence of the streetlights, it was really clear.

THANK YOU SID. Now you know what I've been preaching on this whole time haha.

You know I was on campus all day..thanks for letting me know you were on campus..........

[venture]

A couple stories in the Transcript today...

Late proposals to change Lindsey Street plans complicate issue » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Main points from the first one...

Norman Developers Council and slow growth advocates are in agreement on a single lane (each way) boulevard with roundabouts, bike lakes, walkability, and an overall layout favorable for mixed-use/high density developments.

As we know, Boren favors this solution as well. He recommends that traffic to OU needs to be encouraged onto Highway 9 instead. It is noted that Highway 9 already hits capacity at peak hours (my personal comment in a bit).

City contractor, Freese and Nichol, will have a report to the city Monday on traffic capacity for Lindsey.

City Public Works Director Shawn O'Leary has concerns about the design. He also mentioned that they are looking at ADDING an additional traffic light at Murphy, but said a roundabout could work there too.

Another story gave some inside to the politics of it: Surviving Lindsey Street alliances » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Open Records request had an email from Councilman Castleberry to Jungman on the issue. It sounds like Jungman, Holman, Heiple, and Williams are on board with the roundabout design. Castleberry may abstain from voting because he owns the property at the NE corner of Lindsey and Berry. There is also an additional council member that I know of that isn't listed there, so it would seem they have the votes to do Burden's design.

Some other thoughts...

- Highway 9 needs to get upgraded. It is the perfect solution to offer faster access to East Norman and Campus. How do you do this? Well the first part is to have 24th SW go under Highway 9 with a new interchange there, removing a traffic light. That whole ramp with 35 is being redone eventually anyway, so it makes sense to modify Highway 9 as well. Build an underpass for Chautauqua, Jenkins, and 12th SE. That wouldn't get rid of all of the lights, but it would reduce them at the major intersections. It also removes the main one that causes delays - 24th SW.

- It appears many on council want the Burden's solution.

- Businesses along Lindsey, and developers as well, support Burden's solution as it will raise the prospects of more growth along Lindsey and higher property values.

[BG918]

- Highway 9 needs to get upgraded. It is the perfect solution to offer faster access to East Norman and Campus. How do you do this? Well the first part is to have 24th SW go under Highway 9 with a new interchange there, removing a traffic light. That whole ramp with 35 is being redone eventually anyway, so it makes sense to modify Highway 9 as well. Build an underpass for Chautauqua, Jenkins, and 12th SE. That wouldn't get rid of all of the lights, but it would reduce them at the major intersections. It also removes the main one that causes delays - 24th SW.

Hwy 9 definitely needs to be upgraded, even more so with this alternate Lindsey plan. I think you would have to have underpasses and limited access entrances/exits at 24th, Imhoff, Chautauqua and Jenkins. McGee would be an underpass with no entrances/exits. As part of this project widen the highway to 6 lanes. This would be the easiest way for most to access the university, as well as people commuting from the south and east sides of Norman to I-35. As the research campus grows into a larger employment center it will be even more critical.

Lindsey would still be used to access the campus but would be a slower route. Main to University is another option.

[ou48A]

Hwy 9 definitely needs to be upgraded, even more so with this alternate Lindsey plan. I think you would have to have underpasses and limited access entrances/exits at 24th, Imhoff, Chautauqua and Jenkins. McGee would be an underpass with no entrances/exits. As part of this project widen the highway to 6 lanes. This would be the easiest way for most to access the university, as well as people commuting from the south and east sides of Norman to I-35. As the research campus grows into a larger employment center it will be even more critical.

Lindsey would still be used to access the campus but would be a slower route. Main to University is another option.

This^ sounds good and all but there are no reasonable plans for HY- 9 on the horizon anytime soon.

The article says that HY-9 is already reaching capacity at peak hours... but we also know that Lindsey is said to be the most contested street in the state. Clearly both projects are needed..

But seriously, do reasonable people really expect the public to wait another decade to 2 before the HY-9 problem is addressed. We can make our traffic problem better quicker and in a far more responsibly way by adding 2 lanes in each direction on Lindsey.

But on HY-9, whenever it's approved I would propose that the state build an extension of HY-9 from I-35 to the SW part of Norman and have it hook up with SW 60th / Western street. This would be a very short section of new state highway and in an area that is basically uninhabited. It would let Western Street act very much like Sooner Road but on the west side of Norman. It would help folks drive around I-35 accidents and provide a good amount of relive for large event traffic.

[venture]

But seriously, do reasonable people really expect the public to wait another decade to 2 before the HY-9 problem is addressed. We can make our traffic problem better quicker and in a far more responsibly way by adding 2 lanes in each direction on Lindsey.

I'm not completely on board with a 1 lane each way solution for Lindsey at this moment, but 2-lanes each way need to be coupled with roundabouts otherwise we are just going to have 4 lanes of backed up traffic waiting for lights to change. End result - more congestion and no solution. Especially if they are thinking about actually ADDING ANOTHER light at Murphy.

[BoulderSooner]

Single lane each way is a terrible idea

[venture]

Single lane each way is a terrible idea

Please expand on why.