NFL in OKC

[jedicurt]

NFL is a pipedream? I heard this about the NHL and NBA in the 1990s. Naysayers said that we would never get an NHL team and that an NBA franchise was an impossibility.

Well, the NBA is here and the NHL was what we were targeting. We grabbed a bigger fish to fry with the NBA than the NHL; yet, this was the city in 1997 that finished tied with Houston in the 1997 NHL expansion as we took a back seat to Nashville, Atlanta, St. Paul and Columbus.

Don't get me wrong; I respect your opinion--you might be right.

If we hadn't went right ahead and built the Indoor Sports Arena (ex Ford/Chesapeake Energy Arena), you are correct, the NBA would not be here.

We do need some type of stadium; let's get one in place, just in case the opportunity affords itself...

Had we left the Indoor Sports Arena off the original MAPS project in 1993; there would definitely be no NBA or the remote possibility of getting one.

San Antonio? The Alamo Dome will be outdated by the time an NFL team becomes available.

St. Louis? If they lose the Rams; I doubt if they will get an NFL team anytime soon. When Houston let the Oilers leave for Nashville, it took a new stadium and an expansion franchise to get back into Houston.

There is a big difference between the NFL and the NBA. The Thunder in the 2011-2012 season, according to Forbes Brought in $126 Million in revenue. during the 2011 NFL season, the worst team in their league brought it $226 Million (My Oakland Raiders). The Thunder was the 10th best team in the League, with only the Knicks have more in revenue than an NFL team. Even the Lakers did not bring in more revenue than a single NFL team.

The economics to support something like that is much greater than i think people realize. The NBA is is a Millionaires League... the NFL is a Billionaires League, and i just don't see OKC having even the remote chance of being able to support such an entity.

I know i know, everyone brings up the Packers, but the whole state of Wisconsin and their almost 6 million people are their Market... that extra 2 million people makes a difference.

I also am still of the belief that if Seattle had approved a deal for a new arena, we still wouldn't have an NBA team.

[SoonerDave]

NFL is a pipedream? I heard this about the NHL and NBA in the 1990s. Naysayers said that we would never get an NHL team and that an NBA franchise was an impossibility.

Well, the NBA is here and the NHL was what we were targeting. We grabbed a bigger fish to fry with the NBA than the NHL; yet, this was the city in 1997 that finished tied with Houston in the 1997 NHL expansion as we took a back seat to Nashville, Atlanta, St. Paul and Columbus.

Yes, it's a pipedream - one that entirely too expensive to undertake speculatively. We since realized that the NHL had no real intention of giving OKC a franchise; we were leverage among other cities with whom the NHL was negotiating.

Don't get me wrong; I respect your opinion--you might be right.

If we hadn't went right ahead and built the Indoor Sports Arena (ex Ford/Chesapeake Energy Arena), you are correct, the NBA would not be here.

We do need some type of stadium; let's get one in place, just in case the opportunity affords itself...

There's got to be some perspective here. We enjoyed the perfect storm of circumstances to get the NBA here.

We built Chesapeake (nee Ford Center) on the extreme cheap for $80M. An NFL-caliber stadium under current dynamics would cost something on the order of one billion dollars. A "cheap" facility which likely wouldn't get a second look would cost at least half that much - $500M. I can't fathom any responsible businessman, politician, or taxpayer that would endorse the idea of a speculative expenditure in the form of sales taxes, bonds, or some other mechanism of that magnitude would be a responsible use of money. And that expenditure only gets a facility built - it doesn't even begin to cross the bridge of getting and keeping an NFL team here. And it doesn't address the costs of maintaining this facility until a tenant arrives.

Get frustrated with the current salary cap dynamics that make the Thunder look like a constipated kid in the draft or during free agency? That's because OKC is, despite all the success, a small-market NBA team. We're every bit the same thing, only magnified 10-fold, 20-fold, maybe 100-fold, when measured against the NFL's yardstick. Now think about NFL player salaries in that context. See the problem?

And let's not even begin to explore the fact that there's at least two huge NFL priorities way ahead of anything here, even assuming we had this speculative stadium - first, the LA area is fighting hammer, tooth, and nail to get a franchise back in their area. Second, the NFL is looking to expand internationally - to London perhaps - and one candidate to move there is Jacksonville - a small market team that is struggling to find support.

Green Bay is the NFL's monument to small market teams - one they love so much that they forbid any future franchise from structuring its ownership the same way.

San Antonio? The Alamo Dome will be outdated by the time an NFL team becomes available.

St. Louis? If they lose the Rams; I doubt if they will get an NFL team anytime soon. When Houston let the Oilers leave for Nashville, it took a new stadium and an expansion franchise to get back into Houston.

And if two cities that have or have had NFL franchises are struggling to keep them, or to regain them, what possible leverage could Oklahoma City offer that would propel them to the top of the NFL's interest list??

I know I sound like a wet blanket, naysayer, whatever. But we are seeing more and more cities discover after the fact that a huge speculative expense for a stadium often boomerangs into a horrendous financial albatross later. We have a wonderful situation with the Thunder, one we can manage, one where the team is playing in a paid-for facility. We have the benefit of the lessons other cities have learned the hard way about stadium financing. Let's not look that gift horse in the mouth for something that, quite frankly, we just don't have the economic base to support.

I'm all for dreaming big. I'm just as much about dreaming smart.

[Snowman]

While The arena was built with pretty much just the core components originally. Wasn't the initial buildout closer to 80m, not 20m.

[SoonerDave]

While The arena was built with pretty much just the core components originally. Wasn't the initial buildout closer to 80m, not 20m.

Absolutely right. My mistake. Fixed.

[traxx]

Building a $500m stadium on spec would be a stupid idea. With the arena, if we didn't get an NBA or NHL team, the faciltiy still had uses. If we built a football stadium and didn't get a team, what would we do with that stadium? And some of you might answer "soccer." But 20K people watching soccer (which I think is a generous figure) would make the stadium feel big and empty.

[Laramie]

Building a $500m stadium on spec would be a stupid idea. With the arena, if we didn't get an NBA or NHL team, the faciltiy still had uses. If we built a football stadium and didn't get a team, what would we do with that stadium? And some of you might answer "soccer." But 20K people watching soccer (which I think is a generous figure) would make the stadium feel big and empty.

That's what I've been saying all along; start with the bare bones minimum of a stadium. We proposed this by the Oklahoma State Fair board as reported by the Oklahoman in late 1960s (67/69); a 100,000-seat stadium then would have cost $5 to 7$ million. Now its $500 - $700 million for a stadium half to 3/4 that size. Stadiums aren't getting any cheaper.

The NFL is a pipedream; as was the NHL and NBA in 1997 & 2004. We are going to build something for the future (2020) and we have to start at step one. Who knows what out population is going to be in 2020? Could be anywhere from 1.5 to 2 million. The Zoo Amphitheater is outdated; Taft Stadium will shrink in size and we need to build for the future (high school football playoffs, outdoor concerts, large religious gatherings, NFL exhibition football games, OU or OSU non conference football games and I could go on and on...)

We're not Texas; but I can say that the Long Star State builds for the future; as Oklahomans we have a tendency to talk and watch opportunities go by before we act--take a page from the Texas 'build for the future playbook."

The Indoor Sports Arena which cost $89 million initially was a bargain. Whether or not we got an NHL or NBA franchise, we would still have needed this facility.

I understand that the NFL scares some people and the city might be used as a pawn. You think that it hasn't happen before with other cities. Nashville thought Houston was using it as a pawn? NFLs market minimum is 3 million in a 150-mile radius.

Oklahoma City needs a sports stadium; as to the size and how much we want to put into it will be up to the voters. What will be its primary use; a feasibility study could determine that.

I realize the NFL is a mammoth in comparison to the NBA & NHL; however, I recalled the 'naysayers' on the Oklahomans' & Oklahoma Own (forums) taking about that same pipedream hysteria in 1992.

We've got to start building somewhere...

ENOUGH SAID!

[jedicurt]

What will be its primary use; a feasibility study could determine that.

This is the first thing you have said that i agree with over this issue. What would the primary use of this facility be? The first thing we need to do, is a feasibility study... we don't need to vote on anything until that is done.

[SoonerDave]

That's what I've been saying all along; start with the bare bones minimum of a stadium. We proposed this by the Oklahoma State Fair board as reported by the Oklahoman in late 1960s (67/69); a 100,000-seat stadium then would have cost $5 to 7$ million. Now its $500 - $700 million for a stadium half to 3/4 that size. Stadiums aren't getting any cheaper.

The NFL is a pipedream; as was the NHL and NBA in 1997 & 2004. We are going to build something for the future (2020) and we have to start at step one.

The Indoor Sports Arena which cost $89 million initially was a bargain. Whether or not we got an NHL or NBA franchise, we would still have needed this facility.

I understand that the NFL scares some people and the city might be use as a pawn. You think that it hasn't happen before with other cities. Houston thought Nashville was using it as a pawn?

Oklahoma City needs a sports stadium; as to the size and how much we want to put into it will be up to the voters. What will be its primary use; a feasibility study could determine that.

I realize the NFL is a mammoth in comparison to the NBA & NHL; however, I recalled the 'naysayers' on the Oklahomans' & Oklahoma Own (forums) taking about that same pipedream hysteria in 1992.

We've got to start building somewhere...

No disrespect, but no.. We don't have to just build for the sake of building. We at least had a plan for an achievable goal when we set out to build the Ford/Chesapeake center. We had a plan when we built the Bricktown Ballpark. But what's the plan for this NFL-to-be destination? How are you financing it? Which franchise are you targeting? How do you appeal to the NFL to expand if you're not acquiring an existing one? And how do you overcome the built-in obstacle of avoiding the small-market stigma that is every bit the reason why Jacksonville is struggling as an NFL city?

So if you insist that we "have" to start "somewhere," what specifically are you suggesting? That we build some sort of a 25K seat "starter" stadium, but hope someday we can expand it to 100K? And build the 25K seat facility on a site capable of supporting four times that much? Keep in mind, too, that your 2020 NFL future is only 6.5 years away, and if your "starter" place broke ground tomorrow it'd be at least a year - possibly two - before it could be ready, but we'd have to be ready to turn the shovels and expand it to NFL-caliber in less than three more years - assuming we find an ownership group that's even financially capable of holding a NFL franchise?

The point is there's a critical, critical difference between a dream and a plan. We have no NFL plan, because I believe most of the business people who know a lot more about the dollars and cents side of that business know that an NFL franchise in OK is a very tough idea to float. I remember just a few years ago when Arena Football was big, and some investors thought about bringing a team to OKC. They didn't, and I remembered reading very clearly that the reasons they didn't were because, quite simply, the numbers didn't add up. Another group tried it, got an AF2 team, and guess what - it didn't work. The numbers tell us that population areas like a large city can support about one major sports franchise per million residents - and that's exactly what we have now. One great franchise, about one million greater central OK residents. We've realized that dream. We've got it in our hands. Now we're wanting more. At some point you go from dreaming big to overdriving your headlights.

As someone who enthusiastically voted for the original MAPS, and someone who loves football (although college moreso than pro) its frustrating to be equated with a "naysayer" merely because there's an insistence that we bring some rationality to the notion of dreaming big. Getting the NFL in OKC is a drastically larger financial project and long-term commitment, both from the civic side in terms of the prospect of financing a stadium, and on the corporate side in terms of buying and operating a franchise, than our NBA situation is or ever has been.

Sorry, but I just can't get behind it.

[jedicurt]

No disrespect, but no.. We don't have to just build for the sake of building. We at least had a plan for an achievable goal when we set out to build the Ford/Chesapeake center. We had a plan when we built the Bricktown Ballpark. But what's the plan for this NFL-to-be destination? How are you financing it? Which franchise are you targeting? How do you appeal to the NFL to expand if you're not acquiring an existing one? And how do you overcome the built-in obstacle of avoiding the small-market stigma that is every bit the reason why Jacksonville is struggling as an NFL city?

So if you insist that we "have" to start "somewhere," what specifically are you suggesting? That we build some sort of a 25K seat "starter" stadium, but hope someday we can expand it to 100K? And build the 25K seat facility on a site capable of supporting four times that much? Keep in mind, too, that your 2020 NFL future is only 6.5 years away, and if your "starter" place broke ground tomorrow it'd be at least a year - possibly two - before it could be ready, but we'd have to be ready to turn the shovels and expand it to NFL-caliber in less than three more years - assuming we find an ownership group that's even financially capable of holding a NFL franchise?

The point is there's a critical, critical difference between a dream and a plan. We have no NFL plan, because I believe most of the business people who know a lot more about the dollars and cents side of that business know that an NFL franchise in OK is a very tough idea to float. I remember just a few years ago when Arena Football was big, and some investors thought about bringing a team to OKC. They didn't, and I remembered reading very clearly that the reasons they didn't were because, quite simply, the numbers didn't add up. Another group tried it, got an AF2 team, and guess what - it didn't work. The numbers tell us that population areas like a large city can support about one major sports franchise per million residents - and that's exactly what we have now. One great franchise, about one million greater central OK residents. We've realized that dream. We've got it in our hands. Now we're wanting more. At some point you go from dreaming big to overdriving your headlights.

As someone who enthusiastically voted for the original MAPS, and someone who loves football (although college moreso than pro) its frustrating to be equated with a "naysayer" merely because there's an insistence that we bring some rationality to the notion of dreaming big. Getting the NFL in OKC is a drastically larger financial project and long-term commitment, both from the civic side in terms of the prospect of financing a stadium, and on the corporate side in terms of buying and operating a franchise, than our NBA situation is or ever has been.

Sorry, but I just can't get behind it.

What he said!

[bluedogok]

I know i know, everyone brings up the Packers, but the whole state of Wisconsin and their almost 6 million people are their Market... that extra 2 million people makes a difference.

As I have stated in a few threads, if Green Bay had no pro football history and were trying to get a relocation or expansion team in the current NFL environment they would have no shot at getting a team, neither would Buffalo. That is why people who hold up those markets as an example of "it is possible" are fooling themselves.

[Laramie]

No disrespect, but no.. We don't have to just build for the sake of building. We at least had a plan for an achievable goal when we set out to build the Ford/Chesapeake center. We had a plan when we built the Bricktown Ballpark. But what's the plan for this NFL-to-be destination? How are you financing it? Which franchise are you targeting? How do you appeal to the NFL to expand if you're not acquiring an existing one? And how do you overcome the built-in obstacle of avoiding the small-market stigma that is every bit the reason why Jacksonville is struggling as an NFL city?

So if you insist that we "have" to start "somewhere," what specifically are you suggesting? That we build some sort of a 25K seat "starter" stadium, but hope someday we can expand it to 100K? And build the 25K seat facility on a site capable of supporting four times that much? Keep in mind, too, that your 2020 NFL future is only 6.5 years away, and if your "starter" place broke ground tomorrow it'd be at least a year - possibly two - before it could be ready, but we'd have to be ready to turn the shovels and expand it to NFL-caliber in less than three more years - assuming we find an ownership group that's even financially capable of holding a NFL franchise?

The point is there's a critical, critical difference between a dream and a plan. We have no NFL plan, because I believe most of the business people who know a lot more about the dollars and cents side of that business know that an NFL franchise in OK is a very tough idea to float. I remember just a few years ago when Arena Football was big, and some investors thought about bringing a team to OKC. They didn't, and I remembered reading very clearly that the reasons they didn't were because, quite simply, the [I]numbers didn't add up. Another group tried it, got an AF2 team, and guess what - it didn't work. The numbers tell us that population areas like a large city can support about one major sports franchise per million residents - and that's exactly what we have now. One great franchise, about one million greater central OK residents. We've realized that dream. We've got it in our hands. Now we're wanting more. At some point you go from dreaming big to overdriving your headlights.

As someone who enthusiastically voted for the original MAPS, and someone who loves football (although college moreso than pro) its frustrating to be equated with a "naysayer" merely because there's an insistence that we bring some rationality to the notion of dreaming big. Getting the NFL in OKC is a drastically larger financial project and long-term commitment, both from the civic side in terms of the prospect of financing a stadium, and on the corporate side in terms of buying and operating a franchise, than our NBA situation is or ever has been.

Sorry, but I just can't get behind it.

The Oklahoma Wranglers (formerly Portland Forest Dragons) were in the AFL in 2001-2002 for two seasons. The AFL (big league) relocated here after moving from Memphis to Portland and then to OKC.

This was our first taste of arena football; we were in the big league of indoor football. The team averaged around 10,500 the first season and 8,900 (Myriad) before disbanding after the 2002 season right before we completed the Ford Center. Later an af2 franchise (minor league of the AFL) was brought to the Cox Convention Center (Old Myriad); the team was a disaster at the gate.

There is a big difference in arena football and American Football. Oklahomans did not take to the arena league as did markets like Phoenix, Orlando and San Jose.

We do need to evaluate a need for some type of outdoor facility. It doesn't have to cost $500 million. Explore the possibility of building something soccer-american football specific. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 to 40,000 seats; build something with the option and flexibility for expansion.

MLS's Real Salt Lake (Utah) plays in a surburb (Sandy, Utah) of Salt Lake City in a facility which seats around 21,000; built around 2002 -- the cost of Rio Tinto Stadium was initially around $125 million.

[bluedogok]

I did a locker room design for the Wranglers in the Ford Center, the league folded before construction started. I think that was before the NFL got involved in the AFL.

[Laramie]

I did a locker room design for the Wranglers in the Ford Center, the league folded before construction started. I think that was before the NFL got involved in the AFL.

Thank you bludogok, I'm glad someone recalled that we had an AFL team in the city; that's not to say that the second time around a group didn't reject bringing the AFL back to the city.

Old 'homefries' (Mayor Kirk Humphreys) wanted to bring back the AFL pre-Katrina; the unfortunate disaster in New Orleans did give us the opportunity to be a test market for the NBA. Without the experience of test marketing the NBA; we wouldn't have a tean now. There were many cities in pursuit of the NBA, Louisville (former ABA member), Norfolk-Virginia Beach (largest metro w/o major league sport franchise) and Dallas wanted a second NBA franchise. All wanted the Hornets to temporarily relocate to their cities post Katrina.

[Snowman]

Old 'homefries' (Mayor Kirk Humphreys) wanted to bring back the AFL pre-Katrina; the unfortunate disaster in New Orleans did give us the opportunity to be a test market for the NBA. Without the experience of test marketing the NBA; we wouldn't have a tean now. There were many cities in pursuit of the NBA, Louisville (former ABA member), Norfolk-Virginia Beach (largest metro w/o major league sport franchise) and Dallas wanted a second NBA franchise. All wanted the Hornets to temporarily relocate to their cities post Katrina.

While I would not be surprised if the experience with the Hornets greased some wheels with owners and staff of the NBA. Bennett had started working himself into the NBA's circle around the time MAPS passed, the state of things between the NBA and Seattle was so toxic that even without the Hornets if he could have still got an ownership team to buy the Sonics when they did and a similar arena package together then it seems like few roadblocks would have been put in the owners way of moving by the league.

[SoonerDave]

While I would not be surprised if the experience with the Hornets greased some wheels with some owners in the NBA. Bennett had started working himself into the NBA's circle around the time MAPS passed, the state of things in between the NBA and Seattle was so toxic that if he could have still got an ownership team to buy the Sonics and a similar arena package together then it seems like few roadblocks would have been put in the owners way by the league to keep the team from moving.

Think this is a critically important point that is easily overlooked. Think things were souring and simmering negatively in Seattle for a while, and OKC was at the right place at the right time. That's what I meant when I referred to the "perfect storm" of circumstances. It's also what makes the Seattle fans' ire at OKC so preposterous - Stern was at odds with Seattle, I think, loooong before OKC entered the picture.

[jedicurt]

Thank you bludogok, I'm glad someone recalled that we had an AFL team in the city; that's not to say that the second time around a group didn't reject bringing the AFL back to the city.

I recalled. just don't see the relevance. Spokane has a successful AFL franchise now, does that mean they should consider getting an NFL team as well??? If you are trying to prove the viability of an NFL team in OKC, don't use a league that ended up folding because of bad management and over expanding, and then was replaced by their minor league... In fact, OKC getting an AFL team along with a bunch of other cities that didn't need one, is one of the reasons that league folded, and then the AF2 became the current AFL.

[Laramie]

I recalled. just don't see the relevance. Spokane has a successful AFL franchise now, does that mean they should consider getting an NFL team as well??? If you are trying to prove the viability of an NFL team in OKC, don't use a league that ended up folding because of bad management and over expanding, and then was replaced by their minor league... In fact, OKC getting an AFL team along with a bunch of other cities that didn't need one, is one of the reasons that league folded, and then the AF2 became the current AFL.

No, you need not read anthing into what I said. I was acknowledging that you recalled something. Some people don't know the history of sports in OKC; yet, they come on here half-cocked.

Wasn't trying compare the AFL to the NFL or to pull you over to my angle. Just responding to a commit made by a poster; obviously, my opinions aren't going to influence you anymore than yours are going to influence me. Opinions are for whatever they are worth--when its all said and done; what do they really matter.

We all learn from reading the various postings on this forum; I don't always agree or disagree with what is said on this forum.

Your opinions have merit and I respect what you have to say...

[dankrutka]

Here are 7 quick reasons why this is a pipe dream:

1. Los Angeles does not have a NFL team.
2. A metro needs a minimum of 1 million people per sports team. OKC needs 700,000 more residents to meet this general rule.
3. OKC has among the lowest per capita incomes (i.e., spending money) of major cities, thus meaning it probably needs more than the 1 million people rule.
4. Corporate sponsorship is already spread thin.
5. OU & OSU football are great for those universities. How much would a NFL team diminish that?
6. NFL stadiums are incredibly expensive and keeping the Thunder in a nice arena will provide enough cost for taxpayers.
7. There are far better ways for taxpayers to spend their money (e.g., streetcar expansion) to invest in this city.

This topic should be revisited in 30-50 years though.

[Snowman]

nm

[okcpulse]

Here are 7 quick reasons why this is a pipe dream:

1. Los Angeles does not have a NFL team.
2. A metro needs a minimum of 1 million people per sports team. OKC needs 700,000 more residents to meet this general rule.
3. OKC has among the lowest per capita incomes (i.e., spending money) of major cities, thus meaning it probably needs more than the 1 million people rule.
4. Corporate sponsorship is already spread thin.
5. OU & OSU football are great for those universities. How much would a NFL team diminish that?
6. NFL stadiums are incredibly expensive and keeping the Thunder in a nice arena will provide enough cost for taxpayers.
7. There are far better ways for taxpayers to spend their money (e.g., streetcar expansion) to invest in this city.

This topic should be revisited in 30-50 years though.

What makes New Orleans the exception to the rule?

[bluedogok]

New Orleans had a team for many years before the business of the NFL today came into being. That team would more than likely be in San Antonio if the NFL hadn't of forced Benson to move the team back after the temporary stay in San Antonio.

If New Orleans were going for a new expansion or relocated team and had no previous NFL history (like OKC does not) they would have a very hard time attracting a team in the current environment. The NFL is a much different game business wise than it was when most of the teams were located in the 70's and prior years.

[bhawes]

NFL in Oklahoma City will never happen unless the population in Oklahoma or Tulsa surrounding areas get to about 1.5 to 2 million people.

[okcpulse]

New Orleans had a team for many years before the business of the NFL today came into being. That team would more than likely be in San Antonio if the NFL hadn't of forced Benson to move the team back after the temporary stay in San Antonio.

If New Orleans were going for a new expansion or relocated team and had no previous NFL history (like OKC does not) they would have a very hard time attracting a team in the current environment. The NFL is a much different game business wise than it was when most of the teams were located in the 70's and prior years.

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

[Snowman]

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

There attendance especially the Hornets/Pelicans was not great even pre-Katrina, had it not been for that there is a decent chance that they would be playing basketball in San Jose or another city when the lease was up a couple years ago.

[bluedogok]

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

...and neither would be there still if the commissioners of the leagues hadn't overridden the team ownership in the name of PR. Neither league thought it "looked good to abandon New Orleans" because of Katrina. If Benson and Shinn had their way the Saints would be in San Antonio and the Hornets would be in OKC. There was a "special case" made for New Orleans, the only thing that it has going for it in regards to population is the fact that it is a tourist city.