Dallas

[bchris02]

Great analysis of your visit to Dallas. I have a few things though I want to add though.

First, Nichols Hills and HIghland Park don't really have a lot in common. The scale and density of homes in Highland Park totally dwarfs Nichols Hills. The infrastructure in Highland Park is also incredible, as opposed to the poorly lit and pothole infested Nichols Hills.

Secondly, it leaves me shaking my head when you say that OKC has everything Dallas does but on a smaller scale. I don't think that is the case at all, at least not yet. You could say the opposite - that Dallas has everything OKC does on a larger scale and that would be true. OKC is still very reliant on Dallas and people flood down there every weekend because it offers so much that is unavailable here. From shopping to entire cuisines to their transportation network to museums and tourist attractions, Dallas is on an entirely different level. I hope some day OKC outgrows some of its reliance on Dallas in the same way Charlotte has outgrown reliance on Atlanta.

In terms of shopping centers and grocery stores, there is no reason OKC couldn't have some of what Dallas does, but it doesn't yet. The much higher number of grocery stores per capita there is the magic of increased competition, less Wal-Mart saturation, and modern liquor laws that make it easier for grocers to turn a profit. As for shopping centers, it would be very realistic to see development in OKC similar to the area in Frisco around Stonebriar Mall.

Lastly, people in OKC like to complain about Dallas traffic but for a major city like that, it is actually very navigable. Every time I've dealt with the supposed terrible traffic I have been underwhelmed by how bad it actually is vs how bad people say it is. It's all about perspective though. I know plenty of people from rural areas who complain about OKC traffic. If you are used to Houston or LA you would probably really appreciate Dallas traffic. Even smaller cities with less than adequate highway systems like Austin or Charlotte have worse traffic than what I have encountered in Dallas. Despite what people say, Dallas' investment in its highway system has paid off.

[G.Walker]

My family and I go to Dallas quite often, as my wife is from there, so we visit family and friends frequently. We go at least 2-3 times a year. We just left there last weekend, and it seems to get bigger and bigger every time we go. The good thing about this trip, we left about 10A on a Friday, and got there about 1PM, and experienced almost no traffic. I like Dallas for visiting, to get away from here for a while, but I couldn't live there, again just too many people. We have to remember outside of the big three metro areas of New York, LA, & Chicago, DFW metro area is a bustling 7M, that's crazy. So we always have to remember we live just a few hours away from one of the biggest metropolis' in the US. The one thing I think that keeps people going to Dallas and making trips to Dallas is their destinations. I mean Six Flags over Texas, Hurricane Harbor are great places. My family and two other families from Norman went down there for the weekend to go to Six Flags, those dollars could been here if we had a decent amusement park. But even closer to Oklahoma in Grapevine you have Great Wolf Lodge, Legoland, Sea Life Aquarium, etc. These are some of the top reasons people travel to the Dallas area, not to look at skyscrapers and condos. So if the OKC metro area invested in some quality destination/tourist attractions, we could retain some of our dollars being spent in Dallas instead of OKC.

[Bullbear]

There are all sorts of draws to Dallas depending on what people enjoy. I am there 1-2 times a month. My partner plays in a softball league there so we are there for that and to just hang out with friends. I haven't went to six flags In probably 10 years. We tend to spend most our time in downtown,midtown and turtle creek area.

[turnpup]

Great analysis of your visit to Dallas. I have a few things though I want to add though.

First, Nichols Hills and HIghland Park don't really have a lot in common. The scale and density of homes in Highland Park totally dwarfs Nichols Hills. The infrastructure in Highland Park is also incredible, as opposed to the poorly lit and pothole infested Nichols Hills.

Secondly, it leaves me shaking my head when you say that OKC has everything Dallas does but on a smaller scale. I don't think that is the case at all, at least not yet. You could say the opposite - that Dallas has everything OKC does on a larger scale and that would be true. OKC is still very reliant on Dallas and people flood down there every weekend because it offers so much that is unavailable here. From shopping to entire cuisines to their transportation network to museums and tourist attractions, Dallas is on an entirely different level. I hope some day OKC outgrows some of its reliance on Dallas in the same way Charlotte has outgrown reliance on Atlanta.

In terms of shopping centers and grocery stores, there is no reason OKC couldn't have some of what Dallas does, but it doesn't yet. The much higher number of grocery stores per capita there is the magic of increased competition, less Wal-Mart saturation, and modern liquor laws that make it easier for grocers to turn a profit. As for shopping centers, it would be very realistic to see development in OKC similar to the area in Frisco around Stonebriar Mall.

Lastly, people in OKC like to complain about Dallas traffic but for a major city like that, it is actually very navigable. Every time I've dealt with the supposed terrible traffic I have been underwhelmed by how bad it actually is vs how bad people say it is. It's all about perspective though. I know plenty of people from rural areas who complain about OKC traffic. If you are used to Houston or LA you would probably really appreciate Dallas traffic. Even smaller cities with less than adequate highway systems like Austin or Charlotte have worse traffic than what I have encountered in Dallas. Despite what people say, Dallas' investment in its highway system has paid off.

BChris, I am not an argumentative poster on here, and I don't intend to ever be, but I would strongly urge you to re-read my original post about the trip to Dallas. The point of the whole thing was to compare the Dallas I knew from 20-ish years ago to the Dallas we saw last weekend. The things I discussed were merely observations, and were not intended to be pro- or anti-Dallas. You also mis-stated some of the points I made, such as saying I said we had EVERYTHING Dallas does, but on a smaller scale. Go back and look. I said we have MOSTLY everything, which I will stand by. Not every specific thing, but most of the types of things you can get in Dallas.

As for your assertion that Nichols Hills and Highland Park don't have much in common, I will respectfully disagree. I lived right in the heart of Highland Park/University Park for 4 years while getting my degree from SMU. I had friends born and raised in HP. I dated a guy from there. I shopped there, ate there, partied there--did everything in that little area in the heart of the city. It was my entire culture and environment for all of that time, as well as during the 5th year I lived in Dallas before leaving. Highland Park and Nichols Hills have several things in common: First off, they're known for being where quite a bit of the "old money" people live. Yes, there are exceptions to that, but there's a commonality in that demographic. Second, many (not all) of the houses in both areas are from the same era. In HP and NH, you have a smattering of older (1930s) houses, and then a larger number of "newer" (1950s) houses, followed by (currently) a bunch of those older houses being demolished and/or completely rehabbed as "McMansions". I will challenge you on your statement that NH houses aren't nearly the same scale as HP. We have some VERY large, VERY elaborate homes in NH, just as are in HP. Are there more in HP than in NH? Probably, because Dallas is much bigger. As for the density, you are 100% correct. The majority of houses in HP are much closer together than in NH, and on much smaller lots. That aspect of it reminds me more of Crown Heights. No matter, the point I was trying to make was with respect to the McMansioning of those two neighborhoods. Until we went to Dallas, I wasn't aware of it being done like that anywhere else. It almost made me feel a little better, knowing it wasn't just being done in OKC (seeing as how we tend to destroy a lot of our cool older stuff here).

Additionally, I wasn't "complaining" about the Dallas traffic. If you go back and look at what I wrote, the only thing I had an issue with was the I-35E corridor between Denton and Dallas proper. I complimented the new "express lane" on LBJ, and pointed out that the George Bush and the Dallas North Tollway were very accessible.

I HAVE driven in Los Angeles. I actually lived in Los Angeles--right after I left Dallas. I quickly realized how much more congested LA was than Dallas and adapted to their traffic patterns just fine. As I said in my post, I'm a very good driver, and have been driving in big cities since I was 17. Traffic is different everywhere, and it's just something you learn to deal with in whatever market you're in.

Again, I don't mean to be argumentative but your response to my post seemed a bit condescending, and I wanted to call you out on it. Dallas is awesome. OKC is awesome. Right now, for me and my family, OKC is where we prefer to be.

[Plutonic Panda]

Turnpup, if you don't mind me asking, what did you and your family do?

[turnpup]

We primarily went down there so I could show my daughter and my husband my old stomping grounds, and just to have fun in general. When we travel with the little one, we always seek out Embassy Suites, because they have a separate bedroom that's private, and then the living room with the fold-out couch bed. Also, they have the free hot breakfast, and free drinks and appetizers each evening. And the (godforsaken, kid-filled, chlorine-infested, loud) indoor swimming pool (can you tell how much we hate that part, but do it for the kid?). The one we stayed at was the one near the Galleria, at Noel and Spring Valley. It was pretty nice, and a big plus was that they have two live swans living in the lobby. My daughter was ecstatic. Every morning at 10:30 they feed the swans lettuce. The kids are allowed to help. Those swans are pretty cool. When they sleep, they tuck their heads under their wings and just float. The current of the pool they're in makes them spin softly while they're asleep. It's kind of a trip.

We ate at Uncle Julio's, Snuffers Greenville (twice, at my husband's request), iFratelli Pizza (carryout), Flying Saucer and Texas de Brazil. It was fun making sure we ate at places that we don't (yet) have in OKC, even if they were chains.

As for activities:

The Galleria--my daughter wanted to see a real live Louis Vuitton store...Interestingly, they were having some sort of Muslim event at the attached Westin hotel, because there was a huge contingent of women in Burkas, even a few of the very restrictive ones with only the small cutouts for the eyes. It's the largest group of Burka'd women I've seen in one place. I was happy to notice that nobody seemed to bat an eye at them. I was also happy that we managed to (a) not buy anything; and (b) keep the kid from insisting on ice skating. She actually said herself that it was too crowded.

SMU--which is amazing to see the growth they've experienced over the past 20 years, and how beautifully the new buildings blend in with the old...they do it right at that place. They have a strict requirement that all new buildings/parking structures be done in the same Georgian style of architecture (I can only imagine how stunning OU would be if they'd kept to the style of their original buildings on campus). We walked all over campus and I took pictures of everything, and showed my family where I'd lived the first two years, and where I had various classes. We went up to the top of the parking garage I'd used (which, at the time I was there, was the only parking garage) and looked at the awesome view of the skyline. I reminisced about how I had gone up there for the turn of the century, and had seen fireworks literally every single direction we looked--a 360 degree panorama of celebration.

The George W. Bush Presidential Museum, which is pretty cool. The building itself is very large and very high-tech. We didn't spend a lot of time looking at the exhibits (as we were pressed for time), but it appeared to be exceptionally well-done, both inside and out. Even though the facility is technically on the SMU campus (at the eastern edge and toward the south end), it was granted an exception to the "all new buildings must be Georgian architecture" rule. One of the employees told me that that was kind of a deal-breaker, being able to have a different type of building design. But it doesn't really clash with the rest of campus. It's done in a kind of native-Texas theme, with plants and grasses and rocks and stuff that you'd see in that environment. Very tasteful.

Highland Park/University Park sightseeing--we drove around and looked at the houses, and at the country club, and the HP Village shopping complex. As I mentioned earlier, we got to see an open house at a new McMansion. We drove down Mockingbird to Love Field just to show my husband where it is, as he had seen a lot of low-flying planes while we were downtown.

Downtown/Uptown/Deep Ellum sightseeing--we drove all around downtown/Uptown/Deep Ellum, just looking at everything and all the people. We drove down to see the Swiss Avenue houses (which I've always said I'd love to buy and live in one of if I ever moved back to Dallas). There weren't any for sale. I can't even imagine how much the price has gone up on them since I was there. At that time, there were quite a few of them that were run-down and could be had for a lesser amount. Pretty much not true now.

The Dallas Arboretum--so very amazing, and it's grown so much since the last time I was there. We toured the DeGolyer house, which I'd not done before. The guide was awesome, and he even took the time to answer a question from my daughter. The gardens were in bloom (this is the "Dallas Blooms" time of the year for the Arboretum), the grass was green, and it was a picture-perfect day. I could hang out there forever if I had the time. There were tons of Quinceanera photos being taken of the young girls in their bright, festive dresses, as well as a few other photo shoots of girls in pageant-type attire. That part reminded me of Will Rogers Park, and how somebody's always doing photo shoots at any given time. We took off our shoes and walked through the most soft, dense grass you can imagine. Man, I wish our yard could be like that. It's probably a variety of grass we can't grow in this zone. As we were leaving, we bought a family membership to the Arboretum (even though we have no idea if we'll go back there this year) because it turns out that they have a reciprocal agreement with the Myriad Botanical Gardens, so it's well worth it.

We loved the reciprocal agreement on the tollways! Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* Dallas has done away with paying cash/change on their toll roads. I don't remember seeing anywhere you could stop and pay. It was just all automated. We loved going really fast on the tollway between Mockingbird and LBJ. I think we reached the 90s, and there were still people passing us. This was on Monday, during the day.

That's about it, packed into just a few days. It was a great trip, and my husband and I hope to go back--alone--and stay at a really nice boutique hotel.

[Plutonic Panda]

We primarily went down there so I could show my daughter and my husband my old stomping grounds, and just to have fun in general. When we travel with the little one, we always seek out Embassy Suites, because they have a separate bedroom that's private, and then the living room with the fold-out couch bed. Also, they have the free hot breakfast, and free drinks and appetizers each evening. And the (godforsaken, kid-filled, chlorine-infested, loud) indoor swimming pool (can you tell how much we hate that part, but do it for the kid?). The one we stayed at was the one near the Galleria, at Noel and Spring Valley. It was pretty nice, and a big plus was that they have two live swans living in the lobby. My daughter was ecstatic. Every morning at 10:30 they feed the swans lettuce. The kids are allowed to help. Those swans are pretty cool. When they sleep, they tuck their heads under their wings and just float. The current of the pool they're in makes them spin softly while they're asleep. It's kind of a trip.

Awesome! I had no idea about that Embassy Suites. Real swans; that is pretty cool.

We ate at Uncle Julio's, Snuffers Greenville (twice, at my husband's request), iFratelli Pizza (carryout), Flying Saucer and Texas de Brazil. It was fun making sure we ate at places that we don't (yet) have in OKC, even if they were chains.

I have never eaten at Uncle Julio's or Snuffers. I would definitely recommend a couple restaurants: The Londoner(preferably the one in Addison), Cloud 9(casual restaurant in the Reunion Tower), La Hacienda Ranch(North Dallas), Deli News(great breakfast place @ Campbell & Preston), Y.O. Ranch Steakhouse, Hibiscus, and a cool restaurant to take kids to is the Magic Time Machine.

A couple of good ones if you go back with your husband alone are Oak(close to Uptown), The Melting Pot(go to the Addison one, better vibe and atmosphere, imo),Five Sixty(the third level atop of the Reunion Tower) St. Martins Wine, Bijoux(funny enough, it's on a road called Lovers LN and is close to downtown), and lastly, I have not been to this one, but I have heard great things about the Mansion Restaurant.

I'll post some more later. Have to get back to work.

[Plutonic Panda]

This is the website for the Time Machine

Magic Time Machine

[Village]

I went to Dallas over the break, All the hotels like the Magnolia and Adolphus were booked, so i ended up staying in a cheap Marriott Courtyard.
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[turnpup]

Thanks for all the restaurant info, PluPan. It's nice to know there are good dining options up in Reunion Tower. I thought about going there, but wasn't sure if it'd be any good. Way back when I was in college, we ate at the rotating restaurant there (can't remember what it was called) and it was pricey and not-so-good. Next time, we'll go there for sure, now that I know it's going to be a decent meal.

Believe it or not, I've been to the Magic Time Machine, way back before the little one was born. We drove past there last weekend and I made a mental note that she'd probably like that place. Funny you mentioned it, too. Perhaps next time.

Snuffer's (on lower Greenville) was all the rage when I was in college. It was very small, and always packed with people, inside and out. Their specialty was cheese french fries. The cheese is baked all the way down into the fries, as opposed to being sprinkled only on top. They serve them with ranch dressing for dipping. Snuffer's was also a big drunken hangout for the kids I went to school with. I joked with the waitress when we were there last weekend about that being one of the few times I'd been to Snuffer's while sober. They've expanded the restaurant, so now it's all spacey, with big TVs on every wall, and nice bathrooms, and a huge patio. I have no idea if it still gets crowded at night, but it sure wasn't very crowded in the daytime when we were there. The cheese fries are still good.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah no problem. Just talked to Joe and goodsa old boys. It's like Tulsa only bigger.

I plan to add more about Sallas amd what it offers. Sure you already know about it since you lived there but Ill post it anyways. Some really cool things people don't know about Dallas. Not many people like what the dallas does but it keeps right on doing it!

[Plutonic Panda]

Adaniel, here is current traffic in Dallas compared to other major cities. I'm going to start doing this and everytime I'm down there I'm going to start making a log of what highway I'm on, what time of day, and how fast the traffic is moving.

Time and time again you and now Dankruta refuse to give me specifics on where the traffic is bad even though I've come out and contradicted myself a couple times by saying there are a few highways around the DFW metro that are constantly backed up. Stemmons, LBJ, 35E, and sometimes Central Expressway.



More green than any other color. Wonder why that is.



Highways are actually pretty good in Houston.

Atlanta


DC Area


Furthermore, to any of the resident urbanists who live in Dallas and think the traffic there is so awful and DART sucks, why do you live in Dallas? I constantly hear how this Jeff Speck guy has great views on how to build cities that lead to prosperous boomtowns with explosive growth, new jobs, allows you to save thousands a month, is healthier and people who live there live longer, so if that was truly the case, you should have no problem packing up and moving to one of those places. Same thing goes for Europe.



Right now, the US unemployment is at 5.5

Here is some more info: List of countries by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Also funny how some of the most urban cities in the US are the ones with the highest unemployment rates.

Unemployment Rates for Large Metropolitan Areas

Anyways, not trying to get off subject here, it's just something I've long though was funny.

[Plutonic Panda]

Adaniel, about how many miles would say you've driven around Dallas this year? What highways have you encountered bad traffic on? How fast were you moving? What was the time of day?

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah no problem. Just talked to Joe and goodsa old boys. It's like Tulsa only bigger.

I plan to add more about Sallas amd what it offers. Sure you already know about it since you lived there but Ill post it anyways. Some really cool things people don't know about Dallas. Not many people like what the dallas does but it keeps right on doing it!

i don't know what on earth was going through my mind when I typed this but I do plan to showcase he city and its attractions more for you and anyone else who goes down there for a visit.

[Video Expert]

Traffic comparison at 5:15PM today...

DFW_515PM_3-27-2015.jpgOKC_515PM_3-27-2015.jpg

[Plutonic Panda]

No way. Traffic backs up in Dallas at rush hour just like I said it does!? You're kidding me.

[Plutonic Panda]

You know what else, for a city of 7 million, there sure is a lot of green there.

[Video Expert]

You know what else, for a city of 7 million, there sure is a lot of green there.

Yeah...a lot of green South of I-30. Majority of that 7 Million lives north of I-30 though. Nothing personal, but I've been driving DFW highways for 30 years...and the traffic in Dallas, Denton, Collin, and Tarrant Counties between 6-10am and 3:00PM- 7:00PM is terrible no matter how you want to spin it.

However, I believe Houston traffic is actually worse.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree with you man. Listen, I'm not trying to say traffic in Dallas is a walk in the park. During rush hour, it is nightmarish conpared to OKC.

But if you reall think about it, for the most part traffic in Dallas moves with a few exceptions.

[Urbanized]

Rush hour in Dallas is rush (4-5) hour(s). If you're downtown past 3 PM and headed north, you might want to wait until 7 or 8. I've been down there quite a bit in the past 6 months, and honestly I'm astonished at how bad 35E is vs just last year. If you're leaving after 3 PM from the downtown or market areas, a trip to OKC that has taken between 3 and 3-1/2 hours as long as I remember now takes 5. Taking the NDT makes it quite a bit better, but avoid 380 to Denton. Used to be my secret weapon, but now it's terrible with construction too. I think next time I will cut north before Denton on 289 or 377 to 82 and meet back up with 35 in Gainesville. It's that excruciating.

According to that map, I'm pretty sure that if a gun was held to my head and I was forced to move to a Dallas suburb that I would move to Duncanville.

[bchris02]

35E is especially bad because of construction.

It's a city of 7 million people though. A city that size is going to have some congestion. For a metro area that size, Dallas traffic flows remarkably smoothly. People who can't handle a little traffic congestion probably won't be happy in a big city.

And Urbanized, you should get off on university in Denton and take the NDT instead of 35E. It's much faster.

[Urbanized]

Did you read the part that I wrote specifically about having switched to the NDT recently? But now University/380 is torn up and running two lanes throughout most of Denton and presents a nightmare on its own.

Regarding your comment that people who don't care for congestion shouldn't live in a big city? I'm reasonably well-traveled and can think of multiple cities I would consider moving to under the right circumstances, all of them at least as vibrant as Dallas if not more ("vibrancy" not necessarily being an economic term but also referring to quality of life).

Cities like Portland, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, New York, London, and even Denver ALL offer similar or better economic opportunities to those in Dallas, yet VASTLY better quality of life thanks in large part to the chance to live, work, play and generally function without spending half of your existence behind a windshield.

Accepting congestion as a condition of your existence is not a requirement for all big-city living; only those lives which are confined to cities planned exclusively - though "planned" is not really a good term here - around the automobile.

[dankrutka]

Drove down to Dallas tonight after rush hour and still sat backed up on 35E... And, by the way, the 35E drive has so many potholes.

The funny thing is that I'm not saying Dallas is an unusually bad place for traffic is considering the sprawl layout and population of the city. It's all expected. If you'd quit claiming that generally "traffic flows smoothly" and Dallas highways are utopias then no one would feel the need to counter your arguments, Pluplan. There are definitely worse cities than Dallas. But there's no argument you can make that Dallas traffic is better than OKC's. Of course, it's due to metro size and growth, but for someone driving, that's not what matters. Driving in OKC is way, way better than DFW. Just like driving in Wichita is way, way better than OKC. Dallas is a great city in a lot of ways. I really enjoy it. But it's transportation isn't ideal. That's okay. Let's move on...

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree with that.

[bchris02]

But there's no argument you can make that Dallas traffic is better than OKC's. Of course, it's due to metro size and growth, but for someone driving, that's not what matters. Driving in OKC is way, way better than DFW. Just like driving in Wichita is way, way better than OKC. Dallas is a great city in a lot of ways. I really enjoy it. But it's transportation isn't ideal. That's okay. Let's move on...

I don't think anybody has tried to claim that Dallas traffic is better than OKC's. Of course a small city is going to have much lighter traffic than a large one. When PluPan, myself, or anybody else says Dallas traffic flows smoothly, that is ONLY in comparison to Houston, Atlanta, Bay Area, Los Angeles, etc. Dallas traffic, as much as people complain about it compared to OKC's, is heaven compared to its peer cities.