REHCO / Former Downtown Ford site

[Spartan]

Is the Hall group continuing with their plans regardless of the Convention Center decision or are they in a wait and see mode? If they are in a wait and see mode, how long have they already been waiting?

People in business have this strange tendency to want to keep all options, including remote options, on the table until the very end. Keep in mind though that many of the main "power players" who supported the parkside convention center location also have a pecuniary interest in this site as well. Just unloading it to the city for the convention center would be the easiest thing to do, which is always a compelling option...

It probably isn't the option with the most potential or the most allure, and of course I'm always more interested in a real development than a convention center. But here's a question I have to ask, and this is a legitimate question.. what gives? This is not a vital chunk of real estate for downtown circulation. All circulation in this area has already been effectively cut off by superblocks we've built in the past and are continuing to plan as I type.

The way I see it, the only impact here, is that it will gobble up the prime real estate along the boulevard (or technically, they will put "little stores and stuff" in the facade of this big blank wall superblock building). But does that really matter in the end? Yes, this was supposed to be the opportunity for downtown's grandest future development on this land, and yes, it looked like it was going to start getting developed sooner than expected. But that was all contingent on the boulevard. I say just give up on the boulevard at this point. It's going to be really crappy and we're going to spend a lot of money on it to make it so, because that's what ODOT does, and the city is to feeble and careless to take the project over. Who cares at this point?

Giving up on the boulevard certainly does seem to make this an attractive location for a convention center I suppose. It's a matter of simple convenience vs. a delusion of grandeur that OKC could be better.

[Reno and Walker]

WOW!! and the moon is made out of cheese.

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

Is the Hall group continuing with their plans regardless of the Convention Center decision or are they in a wait and see mode? If they are in a wait and see mode, how long have they already been waiting?

Wait and see mode. If you remember Steve's article about the dealership vacating their lease early, this group was probably taken off guard (anytime someone moves out early, it surprises people) a little bit at the time. The convention center deal kind of fell into their laps, so why wouldn't you wait and see?

Also, I think the WORST thing you could do is rush to develop that site. It's a large site and critical to the future of that area's development. Developing the right project(s) is so much more important than doing it quickly.

[Kerry]

Wait and see mode. If you remember Steve's article about the dealership vacating their lease early, this group was probably taken off guard (anytime someone moves out early, it surprises people) a little bit at the time.

I don't remember that from Steve's article.

I'm not sure how 'caught off guard' they were. 'Clearing the way' means to me that they had a pre-exisitng plan in place and with the dealership out of the way they could continue with the plan.

Houston -based Group 1 confirmed Friday it is closing Bob Howard Downtown Ford, clearing the way for plans by property owners Fred Hall and Bob Howard to develop a mix of housing and retail.


Read more: http://newsok.com/bob-howard-downtow...#ixzz1FTByAjTe

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

I think we're getting nit picky and off base a little bit.

Even if they had plans at the time Group 1 vacated (they didn't), should they not even entertain this site for a convention center?

[Steve]

Guys, you have multiple parties involved in this ownership group. I stand by the article I wrote back at the sale ... but knowing what I know today, it's a bit more nuanced than what I what I wrote. It's ... complicated. Commercial Real Estate Guy's conclusion is correct.

[Kerry]

I think we're getting nit picky and off base a little bit.

Even if they had plans at the time Group 1 vacated (they didn't), should they not even entertain this site for a convention center?

It is their land - if they have owners that are interested in using the land for the convention center then so be it. My question is are they proceeding on two tracks at the same time? C.R.E.G. says no, they are in wait and see mode and Steve says that is correct. Personally I don't see the Convention Center going there so then my next questions is, how long will it take for this ownership group to get a plan together and get something built. My guess is 2 years. My 2-year clock started running on February 25, 2011.

Any idea when they anticipate the convention center being built?

[BoulderSooner]

It is their land - if they have owners that are interested in using the land for the convention center then so be it. My question is are they proceeding on two tracks at the same time? C.R.E.G. says no, they are in wait and see mode and Steve says that is correct. Personally I don't see the Convention Center going there so then my next questions is, how long will it take for this ownership group to get a plan together and get something built. My guess is 2 years. My 2-year clock started running on February 25, 2011.

Any idea when they anticipate the convention center being built?

the site should be selected in the next 60-120 days ... but i don't think it will start construction until 2017 or later

[Kerry]

So if the Ford dealer site is chosen this site sits empty for 6 more years and then probably 2 more years of construction.

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

[QUOTE=Kerry;408668]It is their land - if they have owners that are interested in using the land for the convention center then so be it. My question is are they proceeding on two tracks at the same time? C.R.E.G. says no, they are in wait and see mode and Steve says that is correct. Personally I don't see the Convention Center going there so then my next questions is, how long will it take for this ownership group to get a plan together and get something built. My guess is 2 years. My 2-year clock started running on February 25, 2011.



It could be more, it could be less. With a site this size, everyone needs to be patient. This development should rely on what the market dictates....you don't want to build something and then it sits empty...you lose major momentum for the remainder of the development.

Outside of the cox center site, this site is the single most important site for the ultimately success of core to shore. If we don't get these two sites correct, we'll be paying for it for years to come.

[mcca7596]

Are you saying the Cox Center is important for Core to Shore because you believe it will be incorporated into the Transit Hub? If not, how in the world is the future of the Cox Center critical to the success of Core to Shore (the new boulevard south to the river)?

[BoulderSooner]

i don't think that this site is in any way big enough for the future convention center

[kevinpate]

i don't think that this site is in any way big enough for the future convention center

Oh, I think it is ample land wise, but I also think it is a bad idea to use that land in that manner.

[Kerry]

Let's say the Ford site is picked - then we get one convention center. However, if they pick a different site (say the Steel property), then we still get a convention center AND private development on the Ford site. No telling how long we will have to wait for the Steel site to be reveloped by the private sector. Based on new contstruction trends in Bricktown it would probably never happen.

[BoulderSooner]

Oh, I think it is ample land wise, but I also think it is a bad idea to use that land in that manner.

after talking to a few people i don't think this site is any where close .. remember they need convention space ... support space (storage kitchen ect) and room for a large hotel ... plus they need room to expand in the future ..

this site does not have enough space for all of that

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

Are you saying the Cox Center is important for Core to Shore because you believe it will be incorporated into the Transit Hub? If not, how in the world is the future of the Cox Center critical to the success of Core to Shore (the new boulevard south to the river)?

A myriad of reasons. Right now, the cox center is a major physical barrier for people in the CBD to access the Core to Shore areas (not to mention Bricktown, Ford Center, Myriad Gardens).

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

after talking to a few people i don't think this site is any where close .. remember they need convention space ... support space (storage kitchen ect) and room for a large hotel ... plus they need room to expand in the future ..

this site does not have enough space for all of that

More land could be acquired. Easily. And, if need be, the hotel could be put on the cox site, just south of the Ford Center or the north side of Central Park.

I'm not saying this is my #1 site, just that it should be strongly considered by Populus, et al.

[Spartan]

More land could be acquired. Easily. And, if need be, the hotel could be put on the cox site, just south of the Ford Center or the north side of Central Park.

I'm not saying this is my #1 site, just that it should be strongly considered by Populus, et al.

So do the plans for a cohesive Core2Shore not matter at all? Should that all be planned around the convention center?

[BoulderSooner]

A myriad of reasons. Right now, the cox center is a major physical barrier for people in the CBD to access the Core to Shore areas (not to mention Bricktown, Ford Center, Myriad Gardens).

i don't think most of what you are saying is the case ... the Cox is a big barrier for east to west pedestrian transit .. but not for north to south .. thousands of people walk through the cox every time there is an event at the okc arena ...

and on the other issue .. the hotel needs to be physically attacted to the new convention center ..

i think it is pretty clear that this site will not make it out of the workshop that is the next meeting ..

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

So do the plans for a cohesive Core2Shore not matter at all? Should that all be planned around the convention center?

Not necessarily.

I view Maps3 as a 5-15 year plan...C2S is a 20-50+ year plan. If the 5-15 plan is messed up, it won't matter what the 20-50+ year plan is.

I personally think C2S is a pipe dream. Core 2 Shore is approx. 1,300 acres of land. For reference, the current Ford Center site is 12.5 acres. Leadership square sits on less than 3 acres.

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

i don't think most of what you are saying is the case ... the Cox is a big barrier for east to west pedestrian transit .. but not for north to south .. thousands of people walk through the cox every time there is an event at the okc arena ...

and on the other issue .. the hotel needs to be physically attacted to the new convention center ..

i think it is pretty clear that this site will not make it out of the workshop that is the next meeting ..

I don't take myself seriously enough to think everything I say is correct. When it comes to this site, I just think we are being too close-minded.

Major physical items become a barrier to walking around them. Physically, people can. Psychologically, they only walk around/through a major physical boundary a) if they have to b) if they know where they're going. Ideally, they would have a safe, interesting and easy way to get somewhere. There are books and books written on this subject.

All the sites for the hotel that I named earlier are directly across from the Ford Dealership site. While other cities' CC Hotels aren't attached...if we feel like it has to be attached, we could create a skywalk above ground that would directly link the two.

This site may not make it out of the next workshop. However, it's at least being considered now, so it's important to discuss it now.

[Spartan]

Not necessarily.

I view Maps3 as a 5-15 year plan...C2S is a 20-50+ year plan. If the 5-15 plan is messed up, it won't matter what the 20-50+ year plan is.

I personally think C2S is a pipe dream. Core 2 Shore is approx. 1,300 acres of land. For reference, the current Ford Center site is 12.5 acres. Leadership square sits on less than 3 acres.

So... what is MAPS3? How do you justify it in terms of city-building? Or is it just a collection of random public facilities that have to be put somewhere afterall? If that's the case, I know a good site--Meridian or NW Expressway. Cheaper land, easier acquisition, large parcels.

With all due respect, my personal view is that M3 and C2S are intermingled and one in the same in the sense that MAPS is the public part of C2S and the first phase of it. We can't forget that we want to build a great city. Not just a great convention center. I think that is lost in all of this.

[Reno and Walker]

Have any of you seen the progress of film row. The site would also be centrally located to this area... Film Row is going to evolve into a BT West. Go take a look I see it everyday. Why no one is giving it any props i cannot understand..

[Spartan]

Have any of you seen the progress of film row. The site would also be centrally located to this area... Film Row is going to evolve into a BT West. Go take a look I see it everyday. Why no one is giving it any props i cannot understand..

R&W, I don't think anyone wants another Bricktown..one of those is what we need.

I agree that Film Row is going to become something, what we have no idea. We just need to play that one out. But again, do you build a city around a convention center? Something is going to happen with this Downtown Ford land, we know that. Why do you want it to be a convention center? Why couldn't it be a large mixed-use development that pumps energy into the area at all hours of the day?

What would be better for Film Row? What would be better for C2S? What would be better for the Arts District? Heck, what would be better for all of downtown? What would be better for [insert better convention center location here]?

You have to think more holistically.

[betts]

I don't see Film Row evolving into Bricktown at all. I think it's going to have its own unique character. When I first saw it before anyone had begun renovating it, I thought it would be a great retail/restaurant area, similar to some of the neighborhoods in Chicago just outside downtown. I don't know if that's going to happen. The small businesses there seem to fit it perfectly, and I'd love to see a couple really hip restaurants and bars go in there. Places for the locals rather than tourists.