OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[bchris02]

I agree with LandArchPoke.

Trendy stores like Costco, Trader Joe's, H&M, Urban Outfitters, etc are in a different category than your low-end mall stores like Tilly's and the Garage or outdoor enthusiast stores like Cabela's and Bass Pro. While it's true that OKC doesn't lose out every time, enough of the trendy retailers do go to Tulsa first that this question is legitimate and it isn't pure misconception like a few have said that it is.

If you want to include low-end stores and regional chains, I am sure there are MANY that Tulsa has that OKC doesn't and many that OKC has that haven't made this list. For instance, if Hemisphere's can be listed for OKC then Reasor's should be listed for Tulsa.

Tulsa gets big time bragging rights for Costco, especially as Wal-Mart dominated as this state is. Urban Outfitters would have been a much bigger deal five years ago when it was at the peak of its popularity but they still get bragging rights for it. Trader Joe's will also be a big deal and currently all rumors point to them going to Tulsa first. H&M will be a huge deal for whatever city gets it first.

OKC gets bragging rights for TopGolf, Main Event, and Pappadeaux.

[Pete]

I figured I would try to stay away from these topics, but a friend from LA and NYC just forwarded me the same ICSC (International Council of Shopping Centers) newsletter that had this story in it.

I think the over-reaction to this piece is just that, an over-reaction. I know it has been stated that Costco had the OKC piece of land under contract first, truth is they were working on both deals at the same time. Again, the fact that they dragged their feet on the OKC property is the reason they aren't opening one yet. I'm a bit surprised they didn't go for another section of the Chisholm Creek development, which I would bet they probably end up doing.

Urban Outfitter was looking at Tulsa solely. They are looking for only free-standing construction only (no malls), which is the same as retailers like American Apparel. OKC doesn't currently have an area outside of Bricktown that has decent foot traffic, and they weren't interested in that area due to the touristy feeling. Mark my word, in the next 5 years they'll probably be opening a store in Midtown/Automobile Alley.

Frankly the people on here bad mouthing the Tulsa Chamber should be ashamed of themselves. I know many of these people, and when they are talking to any retailers or businesses looking at Tulsa there is a collective effort to talk about how great the entire state is. In fact, a big selling point for Tulsa is how close OKC and NWA is, and that regional tourism is growing across the nation makes talking about how many great things are going on in the region a good thing, not a bad thing. Anyone who has said any chamber person has said negative things about OKC is straight up lying, and those posted should be deleted or edited. If they are doing it, prove it. Where are the quotes?

The only people bad mouthing anyone is the people on here, and it's a vile stream of hate towards Tulsa. Go look at TulsaNow, this isn't even a topic on there, because guess what - no one in Tulsa cares if OKC got something before us. Really, the list on this thread is laughable too at how slanted it is toward OKC. It's not objectable what so ever.

Here's a few that are missing. Tulsa had the first Coach store, first Michael Kors, first LuLu Lemon (this is the best example of how when one opens in either city it is a good thing for the other. If this had failed in Tulsa, OKC would not have gotten the first "full" store in the state), Oakley opened in Tulsa first, and could name others but will stop here.

Noah's - What is this? Are you all talking about the "events" center off Memorial? You really are going to brag about having a 10,000th place to book a weeding? There's also one in Tulsa just FYI, a simple google search and you could figure that out.

Half Priced Books - Really? Another great retailer to brag about... You can add BooksaMillion to a Tulsa exclusive then

Tilly's - Again, wrong. There is a Tulsa location at Woodland Hills. If we're going to count cheap crap clothing stores you can add Garage as an exclusive to Oklahoma for Tulsa.

Hemisphere's - Really? This is not a national brand. This would be like Kansas City bragging they got a Mathis Brothers before St. Louis... come on. If you are going to use that standard to define "exclusive" to Oklahoma where are the limits?

Kendra Scott - Wrong, yet again. Has a location in Utica Square under construction, so it is not exclusive to OKC.

The list isn't meant as a "brag", it's just a list.

Really don't appreciate the tone and attitude. Some of the Tulsa locations probably happened after the list was made and no one posted about it.

We've asked multiple time for additions and corrections.

[betts]

Who cares? We've got some amazing local shopping in OKC now. Like restaurants, as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care about the chains. I want unique, and I can get that here now.

[Pete]

Trendy stores like Costco, Trader Joe's, H&M, Urban Outfitters, etc are in a different category

You just want to keep creating and redefining arbitrary criteria to get the answer you want; then that is dis-proven then you change it once again.

It gets really, really old.

[LandArchPoke]

The list isn't meant as a "brag", it's just a list.

Really don't appreciate the tone and attitude. Some of the Tulsa locations probably happened after the list was made and no one posted about it.

We've asked multiple time for additions and corrections.

Well Pete, I don't appreciate the fact people here are able to attack Chamber member's and put out right lie's in this thread. Many of whom are close friends of mine, and it's not ok to attack peoples character like that without any sort of proof.

[Pete]

Well Pete, I don't appreciate the fact people here are able to attack Chamber member's and put out right lie's in this thread. Many of whom are close friends of mine, and it's not ok to attack people character like that without any sort of proof.

Completely separate issue.

[LandArchPoke]

Completely separate issue.

Well my tone carries through the post for that very reason. It upsets me to read things like that.

[Pete]

Well my tone carries through the post for that very reason. It upsets me to read things like that.

Fair enough.

I'll make the changes to the list. It's meant to be a way to track all this in an objective manner and cut through the constant rhetoic and mis-information.

[Eddie1]

I think I'm with Betts...who cares? Separate cities have different attractions.

[LandArchPoke]

Fair enough.

I'll make the changes to the list. It's meant to be a way to track all this in an objective manner and cut through the constant rhetoic and mis-information.

Ok well here's a few to add then, since the Tulsa list didn't get updated.

Tulsa - First in Oklahoma - Coach, White House Black Market, Michael Kors, Pottery Barn, Dick's Sporting Goods, Garage, Oakley, Aeropostale, Pandora Jewelry, Williams Sonoma, Dave & Busters - to name a few

Tulsa - Exclusive to Oklahoma - Gander Mountain, Lifetime Fitness (LA Fitness added for OKC), Fleet Feet - to name a few

What are the exact perimeters of this list, anyways?

[Just the facts]

Who cares? We've got some amazing local shopping in OKC now. Like restaurants, as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care about the chains. I want unique, and I can get that here now.

It matter because of WHY OKC is getting passed over. As I have been saying, and LandArchPoke made more succinctly, urban sprawl in OKC has resulted in a near total absence of pedestrian areas. If OKC doesn't fix this situation soon OKC is going to be even further behind the 8 ball (which is why projects like 499 Sheridan, Clayco, the Boulevard, and Cox Center redeployment are so darn important). Auto Alley might have good bones but unless they can get all of the available space under common management it is going to be very difficult to attract national retailers. I know some people are fine with not attracting national retailers but the reality is they can deliver foot traffic that local business can then thrive on (unless of course all the potential customers are in skywalks and tunnels). The Park Ave study should be done sometime in the near future and don't be surprised if they suggest common management and closing the concourse in the area. I wonder if Devon will be interested in giving up control of their fake retail space (spoiler alert - I doubt it).

[Bellaboo]

I'm with the who even cares crowd - went to an Urban Outfitters 9 years ago in San Diego, and was wondering wtf was I even doing in there.

[Just the facts]

$3.9 billion in annual sales; I am sure someone cares. I wonder how many of the people who "don't care" would all of a sudden be the biggest supports of Urban Outfitters if they came here asking for a few million to build their store (ala Cabela's and Bass Pro). I bet they would change their tune and start saying things like - they will be a regional draw, they will attract other retailers, they provide jobs, they will expand the tax base, etc...

Funny how that works.

[Bellaboo]

$3.9 billion in annual sales; I am sure someone cares. I wonder how many of the people who "don't care" would all of a sudden be the biggest supports of Urban Outfitters if they came here asking for a few million to build their store (ala Cabela's and Bass Pro). I bet they would change their tune and start saying things like - they will be a regional draw, they will attract other retailers, they provide jobs, they will expand the tax base, etc...

Funny how that works.

Who cares is the 14 to 18 year old crowd, and that I am not.

[bchris02]

It matter because of WHY OKC is getting passed over. As I have been saying, and LandArchPoke made more succinctly, urban sprawl in OKC has resulted in a near total absence of pedestrian areas. If OKC doesn't fix this situation soon OKC is going to be even further behind the 8 ball (which is why projects like 499 Sheridan, Clayco, the Boulevard, and Cox Center redeployment are so darn important). Auto Alley might have good bones but unless they can get all of the available space under common management it is going to be very difficult to attract national retailers. I know some people are fine with not attracting national retailers but the reality is they can deliver foot traffic that local business can then thrive on (unless of course all the potential customers are in skywalks and tunnels). The Park Ave study should be done sometime in the near future and don't be surprised if they suggest common management and closing the concourse in the area. I wonder if Devon will be interested in giving up control of their fake retail space (spoiler alert - I doubt it).

OKC losing out on retail has little to do with built environment, with the exception of the perception issue if that does in fact play a role. The reason is the OKC metro has four completely separate concentrations of high income: Nichols Hills, North Edmond, Far NW/Gaillardia, and SW OKC/Westmoore. None of those areas, by itself, is large enough to pull a lot of weight in the eyes of retailers. If everything was concentrated near Nichols Hills, OKC would probably have Costco, Louis Vuitton and Tiffany and Co by now, regardless of whether urban principles were used or not when creating the built environment.

[Just the facts]

What is strange is you saying the built environment isn't the problem and then cite the built environment as the problem. You're right and don't even know it.

[Just the facts]

Who cares is the 14 to 18 year old crowd, and that I am not.

...and their parents.

[BDP]

It matter because of WHY OKC is getting passed over. As I have been saying, and LandArchPoke made more succinctly, urban sprawl in OKC has resulted in a near total absence of pedestrian areas. If OKC doesn't fix this situation soon OKC is going to be even further behind the 8 ball (which is why projects like 499 Sheridan, Clayco, the Boulevard, and Cox Center redeployment are so darn important). Auto Alley might have good bones but unless they can get all of the available space under common management it is going to be very difficult to attract national retailers.

Why would we want national retailers on AA?

I know that some of these national retailers have some urban locations, but I can tell you without a doubt they do this only when they absolutely have to in order to serve an important market they want to be in. There is absolutely no national retailer that is interested in pioneering an urban renaissance in a given city. The reason you can no loner say that OKC has a total lack of pedestrian areas is because of one thing: local retailers and restaurants. A national retailer will come to our urban neighborhoods when and only when the locals businesses have elevated it to a thriving thoroughfare that has traffic counts and demographic criteria that meet corporate benchmarks. And by that point the national retailer(s) will only serve to saturate the market and dilute the profits of the locals. This is the prevailing business model of the American retail chain and it's not one I'd like to see in Oklahoma City's emerging urban districts any time soon.

I agree we could use some improvement with our urban options and more pedestrian areas would be great. However, doing so in order to attract outside national retailers to locate within the limits of the city seems misplaced to me. All of those tax dollars are nice, but the profits and increased business ownership generated by local businesses, in addition to the taxes they generate, seems a lot nicer. Costco, UO, H&M, etc., are not the goals of improving the urban experience in OKC and are not what makes urban living appealing to most who want it. These retailers will be willing and ready to leech off it if the city achieves it at some point, but those who want increased urban lifestyle in Oklahoma City really should be actively avoiding shopping at these places, let alone wanting more of them, and instead shop first and whenever possible at any number of local businesses that are reshaping and re-branding the city's urban districts on their own initiative and with no tax incentives or hand outs from the city.

[Just the facts]

4 words: Broughton Street Savannah Georgia.

If you want to do what you guys are imagining THIS is how you do it.

http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2014...lopment-plan-p

[BDP]

4 words: Broughton Street Savannah Georgia.

If you want to do what you guys are imagining THIS is how you do it.

Ben Carter unveils $75 million Broughton Street development plan | savannahnow.com

I wouldn't mind us having a planned outdoor mall like that somewhere, but I'd hate AA to be that. Kind of like 3rd Street in Santa Monica or 16th St. Mall in Denver. Pretty sterile, imo. Kinda "faux urban". 23rd street might be a good fit, though. I'd still favor local, but AA and Plaza are covering that pretty well and I hope that continues, and not something like those.

I have no doubt it'll probably do well, but it'll probably be a part of Savannah I'll avoid.

[bchris02]

I wouldn't mind us having a planned outdoor mall like that somewhere, but I'd hate AA to be that. Kind of like 3rd Street in Santa Monica or 16th St. Mall in Denver. Pretty sterile, imo. Kinda "faux urban". 23rd street might be a good fit, though. I'd still favor local, but AA and Plaza are covering that pretty well and I hope that continues, and not something like those.

I have no doubt it'll probably do well, but it'll probably be a part of Savannah I'll avoid.

I agree. I would really like OKC to have a development like that but I think it should be in the suburbs. AA and the Plaza need to stay local and unique.

[Pete]

I understand new construction on the Glimcher property north of Whole Foods is getting closer and that they have at least one really great retail tenant in tow.

If they were to fully lease NH Plaza then add in some great new development, that whole area would rival Utica Square and provide an obvious location for new retailers seeking a lifestyle center, which OKC doesn't currently have.

[NWOKCGuy]

Good to hear Pete. The question on everyone's mind is does that really great tenant already have a location in Tulsa or will the OKC location be their first?

[Pete]

I just had a long conversation with a real estate broker in OKC that specializes in retail deals and I asked him about the Oklahoman's article and he just laughed and said, "That reporter doesn't know what she's talking about."


I'll state this one more time...

Virtually any retailer not already in Oklahoma comes in and looks at Tulsa and OKC simultaneously. Almost no one comes in with a strategy of only being in one market or the other.

So, they look at both markets and where they go first almost always hinges on where they find a deal they like best, based on property, location, price, incentives, neighboring competition, etc.

Also, retailers almost always divide up their new locations by region where each gets a budgeted number of new locations per year. If they open in OKC, that might mean other locations in other regions will then get higher priority before they open in Tulsa; or vice versa.

This is exactly what happened with Costco. They came in and looked at both markets at the same time, found one they liked in OKC first and put it under contract, then that deal fell apart for various reasons and the site was no longer available, so they found one in Tulsa they liked better. The next Costco in Oklahoma will now be in OKC. Could have just have easily gone the other way, as it does more than not. There was no strategy to go to Tulsa first; it just happened that way.


If someone wants to point out a major retailer that is choosing Tulsa and then has no plans to go to OKC, then I'd say we have an issue that needs addressing. But I can't think of one single case that fits that description, other than Saks which was 30 years ago and a very unique situation.

[LocoAko]

OKC losing out on retail has little to do with built environment, with the exception of the perception issue if that does in fact play a role. The reason is the OKC metro has four completely separate concentrations of high income: Nichols Hills, North Edmond, Far NW/Gaillardia, and SW OKC/Westmoore. None of those areas, by itself, is large enough to pull a lot of weight in the eyes of retailers. If everything was concentrated near Nichols Hills, OKC would probably have Costco, Louis Vuitton and Tiffany and Co by now, regardless of whether urban principles were used or not when creating the built environment.

This may be an ignorant viewpoint on my behalf (as someone on a graduate student salary lol), and putting aside my personal desire for a Costco and/or Trader Joes for a second... why the preoccupation with the high-end retailers? I frequently hear you (in this thread and many others) lament that OKC specifically lacks retailers at the highest end of the spectrum. That may (or may not) be true, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't matter for 90% of the population here that doesn't care to or can't afford to shop at these places. Why the focus on stores that cater to the uppermost tier of the city's population that won't be used by most? Is it solely about appearances and perception to people outside the city?