Classen Circle

[pickles]

Repulsive.

[Ross MacLochness]

Site plan presented last night:

lol very depressing. Even if you think the Donnay building is in bad shape and should be torn down, this proposal is still a downgrade.

[HangryHippo]

Hell yeah! Who doesn't want old storefronts with potential ripped out for more asphalt parking! Especially for a store that's done nothing but piss customers off with ignorant changes.

[dankrutka]

Braum's Corporate Office number is 405-478-1656. I recommend calling and leaving a message with them... regularly. I just did so.

Just a reminder. Call them and let them know.

[Zuplar]

I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.

Not everyone gets an opinion on how every single piece of property is developed. The City has taken plenty of input on planning, and at the end of the day if they find that it fits within that framework, then people need to let it go.

[Ginkasa]

So, should people have done or said something before this came to light instead? If so, what could they have done assuming they aren't part of a small class of people who could have purchased it themselves? Or, do you think people should just completely sit out of situations like these and let the powers that be do whatever without any input from the public?

[Pete]

I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.

Not everyone gets an opinion on how every single piece of property is developed. The City has taken plenty of input on planning, and at the end of the day if they find that it fits within that framework, then people need to let it go.

Until it's something you love or is going to be done right across the street.

And a reminder that this project doesn't happen unless Braum's gains approval to rezone residential lots to commercial, so they are in fact having to make a case for why this should be done. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a public process where people are allowed and encouraged to participate..

[Zuplar]

Until it's something you love or is going to be done right across the street.

And a reminder that this project doesn't happen unless Braum's gains approval to rezone residential lots to commercial, so they are in fact having to make a case for why this should be done. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a public process where people are allowed and encouraged to participate..

I get that, but at the same time you can be upset about it without attempting to force someone else to do what you want.

Doesn't work like that.

As far as living across the street and having a complaint, that is laughable. They live near Northwest Expressway, near a business center and want to complain that a business is going in. You cannot tell me a sane person that lives or moves into an area such as this and doesn't expect something like this. I just don't even remotely buy that argument as being valid.

In fact the article I read had referenced homeowners in the area actually were mostly on board because it's better than living near a bar. The main concern seemed to be increased traffic.

At the end of the day yes I'm indifferent about this particular project, but there has been things torn down that I'd have rather not been. But I as Joe Blow Citizen have no right to tell another citizen or business what they can or cannot do with property they legally purchased, as long as it complies with City planning, etc.

So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

[Celebrator]

This is very short-sighted on the part of Braum's. I get that they have done everything right technically, but surely there is another place they could put YET another outlet. I mean, why do this. The Braums are from Oklahoma and have seen the positive changes this city has undergone, why plow over buildings with character just to put something up that one can see anywhere else. In short, why be a bad neighbor. Now if this was a company from out of state or something, I would understand more about their ignorance and lack of care. But Braums is from here. Too bad.

[Pete]

I get that, but at the same time you can be upset about it without attempting to force someone else to do what you want.

Doesn't work like that.

As far as living across the street and having a complaint, that is laughable. They live near Northwest Expressway, near a business center and want to complain that a business is going in. You cannot tell me a sane person that lives or moves into an area such as this and doesn't expect something like this. I just don't even remotely buy that argument as being valid.

In fact the article I read had referenced homeowners in the area actually were mostly on board because it's better than living near a bar. The main concern seemed to be increased traffic.

At the end of the day yes I'm indifferent about this particular project, but there has been things torn down that I'd have rather not been. But I as Joe Blow Citizen have no right to tell another citizen or business what they can or cannot do with property they legally purchased, as long as it complies with City planning, etc.

So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

[Zuplar]

It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

The zoning is one issue. Got it. For that portion everything you said is correct.

You focused on one portion of what I'm trying to say, and generalized it. I get that you are on one side of the argument, whereas I'm on neither, so at this point I don't think I have anything else to contribute that anyone wants to hear.

[dankrutka]

So being outraged and calling Braum's corporate to complain about their business strategy is absurd and downright childish.

I disagree with you, but I'm not going to insult you by calling you "absurd" or "childish" because I see things differently.

There are public processes, zoning requirements, and public meetings because the common good and public interest are part of discussions about what development looks like within cities. Calling Braum's office to express my dissatisfaction with their policies is not only my choice as a consumer, but in my opinion, my responsibility as a citizen. If Braum's moves forward then they will lose my business forever because I believe this building holds historical value for OKC's LGBTQ community, is a higher and better use, and they've done very little to reach out to those in the community. OKC is already a city without much history left. I think OKC citizens should hang on to anything with any city memory remaining because there's so little of it left.

[Zuplar]

I disagree with you, but I'm not going to insult you by calling you "absurd" or "childish" because I see things differently.

There are public processes, zoning requirements, and public meetings because the common good and public interest are part of discussions about what development looks like within cities. Calling Braum's office to express my dissatisfaction with their policies is not only my choice as a consumer, but in my opinion, my responsibility as a citizen. If Braum's moves forward then they will lose my business forever because I believe this building holds historical value for OKC's LGBTQ community, is a higher and better use, and they've done very little to reach out to those in the community. OKC is already a city without much history left. I think OKC citizens should hang on to anything with any city memory remaining because there's so little of it left.

Please don't patronize me.

If you are taking what I said as a personal insult, that's on you. I don't have the kind of free time to call everyone that is doing something I disagree with and voice my displeasure, and to me, it does sound childish.

So if I were you I'd take your own advice, because your comments are similarly insulting.

[BoulderSooner]

It's exactly how it works.

Braum's is petitioning the City to change zoning so they can do this project.

Citizens organize, provide input and generally voice an opposing view.


And a city and community is not just a group of people doing whatever what they want with a property. All types of ordinances, guidelines and other considerations, not the least of which being that everyone who cares has some degree in ownership in the entire community, not just their own property.

The thing is the the demo has nothing to do with the zoning request. They didn't have to show a site plan or even say they wanted to demo the property.

The owners of the buildings could demo them right now with no hearing

What are legit reason to deny the rezoning of the residential piece. ???

[baralheia]

I don't get why someone who follows the rules and does what they are legally allowed is beat up like this.

Seems like there is always outrage after the fact. If the gentleman who is telling Braums to stop what they are doing so he can buy the building to rehab it was so passionate about the project, why did he wait till now.
[...]

Legally correct doesn't always mean morally or logically correct. Just because I can legally go do something doesn't always mean that I should. And I'd certainly argue that - barring insurmountable issues - destroying a building that is historically significant to the surrounding community is not in the best interests of that community or the owners, for that matter.

As for the "Why did he wait until now?" question - it's been mentioned in this thread a few times that various people have tried to purchase the Donnay building for years, but couldn't come to terms with the owner for various reasons - and they didn't seem to seriously entertain offers until suddenly the Braum's deal popped up out of nowhere.

[LocoAko]

Please don't patronize me.

If you are taking what I said as a personal insult, that's on you. I don't have the kind of free time to call everyone that is doing something I disagree with and voice my displeasure, and to me, it does sound childish.

So if I were you I'd take your own advice, because your comments are similarly insulting.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but let me get this straight: you described people participating in the process by calling Braums corporate "absurd" and "childish", and then, when another member who has done exactly that explains why they did it and feel its their responsibility, you think it is patronizing and similarly insulting? That seems unfair. If not personally, how else was someone supposed to take you describing their actions as childish and absurd?

[Zuplar]

Legally correct doesn't always mean morally or logically correct. Just because I can legally go do something doesn't always mean that I should. And I'd certainly argue that - barring insurmountable issues - destroying a building that is historically significant to the surrounding community is not in the best interests of that community or the owners, for that matter.

As for the "Why did he wait until now?" question - it's been mentioned in this thread a few times that various people have tried to purchase the Donnay building for years, but couldn't come to terms with the owner for various reasons - and they didn't seem to seriously entertain offers until suddenly the Braum's deal popped up out of nowhere.

100% agree with you on just because they can doesn't mean they should.

I definitely am not on the side that Braum's should do it, my stance is that once they own the properties the buildings are on, it's their legal right to do so and if that's what they choose to do so be it.

[Zuplar]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but let me get this straight: you described people participating in the process by calling Braums corporate "absurd" and "childish", and then, when another member who has done exactly that explains why they did it and feel its their responsibility, you think it is patronizing and similarly insulting? That seems unfair. If not personally, how else was someone supposed to take you describing their actions as childish and absurd?

I stand by my comments, so I suppose yes, you are right, if he fits the bill of someone who called, then my comments apply. I'm not going through the thread and making a list of who fits my previous description. I actually really respect Dan, he contributes a lot of valuable information to this site, so my goal wasn't necessarily to insult him, but that up to him to decide if he was offended, which he has.

Likewise I find his details of telling me how the process works as condescending. He quoted me so I know they were directed at me.

Again it's up to the party being offended to decide if the statement was offensive. I did, so it is.

If you'd like to pick a fight with me, you can PM. Other than that I'd like to continue focusing on the topic at hand.

[dankrutka]

Hey, if you find what I wrote condescending then that's on you. Not writing to anyone in particular, but the offended people can self-identify.



I kid, I kid. Not going to get caught up in an OKCTalk war of words because that would do no good and I have no hard feelings anyway. I certainly wasn't trying to be condescending, just explain my position after my post encouraging calling Braum's corporate office seemed to be belittled. Anyway, back to topic. Again, no hard feelings and thanks for the respect comment. I appreciate it.

[MitchellCole]

Braums is dead to me now.

[bchris02]

The Braums are from Oklahoma and have seen the positive changes this city has undergone, why plow over buildings with character just to put something up that one can see anywhere else. In short, why be a bad neighbor. Now if this was a company from out of state or something, I would understand more about their ignorance and lack of care. But Braums is from here. Too bad.

I've heard rumors that the entire thing is that there is some kind of personal connection between the owner of the building and the Braum family. In addition, I've heard that the Braum family, for their own reasons, have no sympathy towards or interest in the effort to save the Hi-Lo club.

[chuck5815]

I think a lot of people, and I mean a lot, are forgetting that a Braum's in this location would be fantastic for Bishop McGuinness students. Rather than speeding across town to Saturn Grille or La Baguette (and endangering the lives of countless citizens in the process, no doubt), they could simply walk to the new Braum's and enjoy a delicious burger and Cappuccino Chunky Chocolate Shake. Seems like that's a major win-win for everyone.

[Pete]

I think a lot of people, and I mean a lot, are forgetting that a Braum's in this location would be fantastic for Bishop McGuinness students. Rather than speeding across town to Saturn Grille or La Baguette (endangering the lives of countless citizens in the process, no doubt), they could simply walk to the new Braum's and enjoy a delicious burger and Cappuccino Chunky Chocolate Shake. Seems like that's a major win-win for everyone.

Do they have open campus for lunch?

I would think very few schools allow this anymore.

[chuck5815]

Do they have open campus for lunch?

I would think very few schools allow this anymore.

They did as of a few years ago. And I know that the kids drove like absolute maniacs to make it back in time for afternoon classes.

[Pete]

They did as of a few years ago. And I know that the kids drove like absolute maniacs to make it back in time for afternoon classes.

Just looked at their student handbook and open lunch is for seniors only.