City Code knower-abouters: Residental Gas Cooktop install question

[SoonerDave]

Anyone here with some building code smarts that could answer a question for me??

We have an electric cooktop in our kitchen, but are contemplating switching it to gas. I was wondering if there are any code requirements regarding minimum distance for a gas burner to a wall - the existing cooktop is adjacent to the oven and I wasn't sure if that might present any code problems.

Also wondering how much I might expect to have a plumber/tech type install a gas line. They could T off the gas to the furnace in the attic (which is directly over the kitchen) and then drop the line down the wall behind the existing stove. I don't *think* it would be a complex/complicated effort, but I wasn't sure. Heck, I could probably do it, but I think that kind of project is best left to someone who is familiar with dealing with gas lines and such. Really don't want to do something wrong and blow up my house LOL

[BBatesokc]

Anyone here with some building code smarts that could answer a question for me??

We have an electric cooktop in our kitchen, but are contemplating switching it to gas. I was wondering if there are any code requirements regarding minimum distance for a gas burner to a wall - the existing cooktop is adjacent to the oven and I wasn't sure if that might present any code problems.

Also wondering how much I might expect to have a plumber/tech type install a gas line. They could T off the gas to the furnace in the attic (which is directly over the kitchen) and then drop the line down the wall behind the existing stove. I don't *think* it would be a complex/complicated effort, but I wasn't sure. Heck, I could probably do it, but I think that kind of project is best left to someone who is familiar with dealing with gas lines and such. Really don't want to do something wrong and blow up my house LOL

Can't answer any code questions - but - we are getting ready to demo and remodel our kitchen. This will include changing our electric glass top stove over to gas. Our plumber said this will require both a plumber and an electrician for introduction of gas into the kitchen area. He is going to utilize an existing gas line and use a flexible pipe through the attic and drop it down into the kitchen.

Not as cheap as I thought it would be. Plumber didn't mention any codes - but our double ovens (no conversion) are built into a brick wall about 10' from the stove.

[u50254082]

Not to state the obvious but I would also check if there is an existing gas line behind the current electric range. I'm not sure if builders started doing it at a point in time but my house built in 04 has a capped gas line behind the stove.

That being said, I've read too many reports of how temp control is harder with gas versus electric. I imagine it's not that different but will require you get used to the new way.

One final point is that the introduction of a gas burning element inside a home could create building code violations that were not there with an electric range. An example would be placement of central air return plenums. There needs to be a certain amount of distance between a return and a flame source as to not recirculate unwanted fumes or gases throughout.

Good luck with the install. Let us know if it makes cooking any better or easier.

[tfvc.org]

That being said, I've read too many reports of how temp control is harder with gas versus electric.

In my experience the opposite is true. All electric stoves I have ever used temp is controlled by an off/on electric cycle. Maybe modern electric stoves are able to send less amps to the burner now, but the older stoves weren't capable of doing this. When making delicate sauces or cream based sauces this can create too much heat or too high of a temperature which can scald the sauce. A good gas stove will allow you to turn the gas down to a barely on state which will give you a tiny bit of constant heat which will give you better control of the temperature and a better product in the end. This is why every professional kitchen uses gas.

[BBatesokc]

In my experience the opposite is true. All electric stoves I have ever used temp is controlled by an off/on electric cycle. Maybe modern electric stoves are able to send less amps to the burner now, but the older stoves weren't capable of doing this. When making delicate sauces or cream based sauces this can create too much heat or too high of a temperature which can scald the sauce. A good gas stove will allow you to turn the gas down to a barely on state which will give you a tiny bit of constant heat which will give you better control of the temperature and a better product in the end. This is why every professional kitchen uses gas.

This is the main reason my wife is really wanting to change to gas burners as well. She hates that our glass top stove cycles on and off in an attempt to maintain heat.

I'd think overall gas is better for cooking since it's by far the most preferred by professional cooks. I'm far from professional, so it doesn't really matter to me, but I do prefer the look of a gas stove and I want a small griddle option also.

[catch22]

I don't like gas ranges because I have a fear of setting off an explosion. I do agree gas cooks much better with a more consistent temperature.

[Uptowner]

Explosions? I guess I'm weird because I grew up with a 1940's stove that you had to light with matches because the pilots had gone bad. But yeah you will probably blow up your house if you try a diy project like that.

1st only a licensed plumber can/should mess with gas.
2nd it will have to be pressure tested and inspected by the city so it will have to be up to code. The plumber will know the code. And the code might not allow you to T off like you think you might.
3rd get 2 or 3 bids. A good plumber should have no problem providing you with an estimate. Also a good plumber doesn't get out of bed for less than $1,000 so expect it to cost at least that. That's actually a joke. But it won't be cheap. Also you can't install gas inside drywall to my knowledge so it would probably need to go outside (exterior) the wall and back through with iron or copper (I'm not sure if code allows for copper but black pipe will be cheaper anyway) to a flex connector. You also don't know if the BTU/pressure in your furnace line allows for another appliance. Often times not. They don't go installing 500,000btu of pipe and pressure when 250,000 is what's needed. So you may need to bump the pressure. This is another reason why it's good to get 3 bids. If all 3 plumbers say it needs to be done. Then they're either all crooks or it's a true story.

Finally: I bought a commercial electric induction plate awhile back for braising, cooking slow, below boiling, and it's a pretty awesome alternative to a crumby electric stove. Although at 1800w if I turn it up high and anything else on the circuit kicks on it blows the circuit.

[SoonerDave]

Lots of info - let me see if I can offer some replies on some of the thoughts:

1) I'll definitely get a couple of plumbers to get some bids. This element of the project was, well, until about a week ago, not part of the project, so I mentally hadn't allocated costs for it. But my wife had other ideas
2) skwillz - There's no stub. I had the house custom built (heck, the builder even built from the floorplans I drew myself) and know there isn't one, and I've looked (more than once) to convince myself that maybe the builder didn't take mercy on my stupidity and put one back there anyway. He didn't. I had the sense to ask for a dryer stub and an exterior grille stub (which we use extensively), but in the kitchen? Dummy on me 100%.
3) Uptowner- what did you mean about no gas through drywall? The dryer gas stub I had the builder put in runs right down the wall and through the drywall, and the line that offers service to grill runs right behind the drywall in what is my son's room on the other side - so I think I'm misunderstanding something there. The current service runs through the black pipe in the attic, and I've read that a lot of installers these days will use bonded flexible conduit for new gas runs like this (assuming local code allows it).
4) Temp control: Electric stoves are nightmare to temperature control because they don't hit a steady temp and stay there - the heat source oscillates and if you want a given temperature, the best you can hope for is to get the element to "average" a certain temperature during on/off cycles - just like an electric oven does. Gas gives you essentially infinite control with no "pulsing" of temperatures.

I may call the city and determine if I can talk to someone about relevant codes there.

[u50254082]

Hey Dave here is something possibly relevant about the gas line behind drywall:
https://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/corr...gh-wall-71647/

So if your plumber planned on using CSST then you should be OK. The concern with stuff like this is you don't want a leak within the stud cavity because it won't be apparent without ripping out drywall. But with CSST, as long as the installer is trained then you should be OK.

[SoonerDave]

Well, just as some follow-up on this, I've contacted two plumbers. And it's always amazing how two folks can look at the same picture and see two different things.

One guy quoted me $1,500 and made it sound like the most arduous undertaking in history. I think it was really code for "we don't want to do jobs like that." They've convinced me. They won't be doing it.

The other outfit said, "oh, that's usually pretty simple, just a standard service call. $90/hr plus parts." They're going to have one of their techs call me to give me a better idea on the details.

What I don't quite understand about the other guy is if you don't want to do a job like that, fine, I get that, but why not just say "we don't take individual jobs like that, thanks anyway" rather than just quote an absurd figure and waste my time listening to how complicated the job is....

ANyone else with recommendations on someone to do this work are welcome.

[Choctaw11]

I am a plumbing contractor and it is not necessary to pull a permit if all your doing is connecting via a stub out (which is highly likely that you have one behind your electric range). All you would do is remove the cap on the stub out, and a gas shutoff valve, dirt leg and yellow flex gas line to your new unit.

[Anonymous.]

What I don't quite understand about the other guy is if you don't want to do a job like that, fine, I get that, but why not just say "we don't take individual jobs like that, thanks anyway" rather than just quote an absurd figure and waste my time listening to how complicated the job is....

Because if you are willing to pay that, your job becomes a priority to get the sucker money. This is one of the reasons so much (not all) manual labor contract work is delayed and never on schedule - they are prioritizing jobs where people overpaid.

[sooner88]

I had that happen recently when getting quotes for canned lights from one of the larger electric companies. Due to my walls being plaster, he made it sound like it would be incredibly difficult and quoted at least $400/light. I'm still waiting on more quotes, but from what I've heard from friends is that is almost double.

[easternobserver]

In general the residential code does not require a clearance to the side counters/cabinets. Technically the code defaults t the manufacturers installation instructions. The only time that clearance generally becomes an issue is with upper cabinets/microwaves.

As for the gas line, most plumbers will go with CSST for this job, but be aware that CSST must be properly bonded to avoid a significant explosion risk. Regarding another post, copper piping is not generally an approved material for fuel gas.

Also be aware that if the ooktop being installed is more than a standard residential model, requirements for makeup air will likely come into play, meaning an upgrade in the kitchen ventilation.

[SoonerDave]

Yup most any commercial-grade or near-commercial grade will require 600-cfm venting. Not going that route. If I find reasonable gas line install prices, we have just a basic 4-burner model to put in. I won't pay $1,500 for having a new line dropped. Wish I'd had the brains to remember a stub wgen we built the house. I remembered one for the dryer, but we've never used it. Grrrr.

[SoonerDave]

I am a plumbing contractor and it is not necessary to pull a permit if all your doing is connecting via a stub out (which is highly likely that you have one behind your electric range). All you would do is remove the cap on the stub out, and a gas shutoff valve, dirt leg and yellow flex gas line to your new unit.

Choctaw, thanks for the info. Unfortunately, when I built this house in '98, I had the brains to tell the builder to stub out a gas line for a dryer (which I've never used), but neglected to have him put one in for the cooktop. So this will be a new run from an existing line. This is all in my attic, and there are two choices - an easy one, and a harder one... The first route, which is entirely unobstructed in the attic, would simply be to extend off the line that feeds the furnace, replacing an elbow with a tee, then running about 15-20 total linear feet of new steel pipe with two 90-degree turns - comprised of about eight feet from the T to the wall where I need the drop, turn of about 2 feet to line it up within the wall, then about 8 feet for the drop itself. The more complicated route would be to tee off the line that feeds the hot water heater, which is closer (very close, in fact) to the wall in question, but would require some holes to be drilled as the source to the heater isn't in the attic. It would be a (much) shorter run of pipe - likely a stretch to even get to 15 feet - but would probably be more labor intensive because of the lack of access.

Either way, I'm still struggling with the idea that this is a $1,500-$1,800 job. I can't fathom that this would take an experienced plumber more than a half-day, and at a $100/hr, that's $400 plus parts. Just kinda frustrated right now.

[SoonerDave]

One other thing that has me a frustrated on this....(glad I can use a place like this to vent just a bit)....I've been told by one vendor they have to ensure they can "size" the house right and make sure the house can take the extra load of the new appliance, as if there's some sort of nuclear balance equation involved and experts and computers from NASA have to be called in. Rubbish.

Okay, conceptually, I get this. At a 50,000 foot level, yeah, I get the idea that adding a tap to the same line to a low-pressure system can and will lower the pressure elsewhere. I get that. But let's get real for just a sec.

A basic, four-burner gas stove operates once, perhaps twice a day *at most,* for typically *minutes* at a time. Worst case is a holiday, with lots of pots and pans, and lots of "stuff" being heated up. The rest of the time? It's off. 23 of the 24 hours per day, that stove won't have any impact on the gas consumption in a typical home - especially in the summer, when that big, bad furnace is in hibernation. I may not have the actual math to back it up, but common sense is starting to tell me I'm being sold a bit of a load of goods to make this job sound more complicated than it really is. Besides, again, if I'd not been brain-cramped when I built the house, it'd have the stub already in place, everything would be working, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But I was brain-cramped, and here I am.

Something else I was told was the difficulty of getting pipe down the wall...so, I went up there and measured it. The wall that will take the gas line will need about a 9' drop from the attic. That means they'd need a 9' (108") vertical clearance *in* the attic to get the pipe down the wall - and according to my handy-dandy tape measure, I've got 114" clearance.

Mind you, I won't actually do this, but it almost wrankles me enough to buy the 3/4" pipe and build the add-on myself, put it all in place, THEN have the plumber literallly just connect and test it. Yeah, they probably wouldn't agree to do such a thing, but the whole thing stilll wrankles me.

I've got one, maybe two more contacts to discuss this project with before I have to give up on it. I'll let you know what I find out.

[rezman]

SoonerDave,.. this whole conversation has me wanting gather up my tools and come help you do this job. Your right, it's not rocket science for crying out loud. I'm not a licensed plumber, but I've done small jobs like this. There's got to be someone out there who is licensed who will do it on the side for $400 - $500 if you bought all the materials. The most specialized tool that might be needed is a thread cutter for any special length pipe that you can't purchase in a stock length, if needed. The rest should be pretty straight forward as long as you have room in he attic to feed the joint of pipe down the wall.

[mkjeeves]

If it's simple, what happened to just having the $90 an hour guy you mentioned upthread come out and do it?

On checking to make sure you don't end up with undersize pipe, this might help: http://docs.cityofsanrafael.org/Comm...ine-sizing.pdf

It's been awhile, but I've calculated that before to see if a nat gas generator could be added to a house without replacing the main.

[SoonerDave]

If it's simple, what happened to just having the $90 an hour guy you mentioned upthread come out and do it?

On checking to make sure you don't end up with undersize pipe, this might help: http://docs.cityofsanrafael.org/Comm...ine-sizing.pdf

It's been awhile, but I've calculated that before to see if a nat gas generator could be added to a house without replacing the main.

It was one of the 90/hr places who told me it would be $1,500 once it was done. Will definitely read that link. Thanks.

[u50254082]

If you do it yourself, at least buy pro parts for the job.

I redid my HVAC ductwork in the attic a few years back and bought all my supplies at Locke. Take a simple thing like metal foil tape used to seal penetrations or to tape off the outer sleeve of the duct. You can buy "Duck" brand tape at WalMart for $5 or ShurTape at Locke for $10. The ShurTape is printed on the outside that it meets certain UL specs. My understanding is that a picky home inspector looks for details like that to know it a job was done right. It would also be a release of personal liability if there was ever a fire and the insurance company questioned the work done.

[Servicetech571]

Not to state the obvious but I would also check if there is an existing gas line behind the current electric range. I'm not sure if builders started doing it at a point in time but my house built in 04 has a capped gas line behind the stove.

That being said, I've read too many reports of how temp control is harder with gas versus electric. I imagine it's not that different but will require you get used to the new way.

One final point is that the introduction of a gas burning element inside a home could create building code violations that were not there with an electric range. An example would be placement of central air return plenums. There needs to be a certain amount of distance between a return and a flame source as to not recirculate unwanted fumes or gases throughout.

Good luck with the install. Let us know if it makes cooking any better or easier.

There shouldn't be a HVAC return in the kitchen to begin with, it's against code.

[Servicetech571]

If you do it yourself, at least buy pro parts for the job.

I redid my HVAC ductwork in the attic a few years back and bought all my supplies at Locke. Take a simple thing like metal foil tape used to seal penetrations or to tape off the outer sleeve of the duct. You can buy "Duck" brand tape at WalMart for $5 or ShurTape at Locke for $10. The ShurTape is printed on the outside that it meets certain UL specs. My understanding is that a picky home inspector looks for details like that to know it a job was done right. It would also be a release of personal liability if there was ever a fire and the insurance company questioned the work done.

I'm not a fan of the shuretape, I've seen the adheasive dry out juts like regular duct tape. Mastic is best, but it's messy, metal foil tape is a good choice also. Any tape you use shoudl be UL181 listed.

[Uptowner]

Sorry. Been on vaca. The copper I recalled was from a long long time ago before they switched to flex connectors. I don't think, whether you use csst or black pipe, that you can run gas pipe inside drywall after it's been hung. It can't be inspected that way. Inside the stud is not problem for a "rough in" inspection then it can be covered up. But after the fact I think you either have to go outside the wall or tear the drywall out. I could be wrong on the csst.

I wasn't really joking about the "plumbers don't get out of bed for less than $1,000" joke. If you've got a project that isn't a simple repair. It's going to cost $$$.

[SoonerDave]

Uptowner, I've talked to at least five contractors about this and dropping a solid single pipe in the drywall hasn't been raised as an issue at all. And one guy was talking about how he'd refuse to do flex even though code allowed it, so if anyone would have balked at it if anyone would have. So I guess I'm a little perplexed on this issue....