Ten Commandments

[jerrywall]

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

[ctchandler]

I don't read the "Second" (not the third) commandment that way. This is not a comment on placing them on the capitol grounds and I certainly don't condone illegally destroying them. Destroy them by challenging them legally. Here is the definition of graven image.
grav·en im·age
noun
a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
I don't believe that a tablet with a set of laws chiseled on it is a carved idol used as an object of worship. I know that the church I grew up in never worshipped the ten commandments in any way.
C. T.

[TheTravellers]

Both reactions I've seen (tribal Right and tribal Left) seem to really be missing the point or are just plain heartless.

What happened here is a mentally ill man acted out in a way he has previously acted out, destroying public property.

Now, if you're tribal Right and believe that we should be in the business of incarcerating mentally ill people who only caused property damage and are no threat to themselves or others, you're probably an asshole. Locking mentally ill people up who are of no threat to anyone is not WJWD. Or if you're tribal Left and think that a shattered monument is good because the ends justify the means and that causing damage to public property is a valid form of free expression, you are also an asshole.

This gets a glitzy headline and sets off lots of tribal fingerpointing and a lot of people fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Just to clarify, I posted the article because I thought it was interesting that it might be the same guy doing the same thing he did to the OK monument. I am of the mindset that mentally ill people need help, not incarceration, and America is woefully inadequate in that regard. I'd like to see the monument removed via the courts, but not sure if that'll happen to this one, though, don't know enough details behind how it was erected yet (but it should never have been erected in the first place, IMO).

[Bunty]

I don't read the "Second" (not the third) commandment that way. This is not a comment on placing them on the capitol grounds and I certainly don't condone illegally destroying them. Destroy them by challenging them legally. Here is the definition of graven image.
grav·en im·age
noun
a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
I don't believe that a tablet with a set of laws chiseled on it is a carved idol used as an object of worship. I know that the church I grew up in never worshipped the ten commandments in any way.
C. T.

Just to correct and clarify, I was referring to the 2nd Commandment not the 3rd one.

[Bunty]

Just to clarify, I posted the article because I thought it was interesting that it might be the same guy doing the same thing he did to the OK monument. I am of the mindset that mentally ill people need help, not incarceration, and America is woefully inadequate in that regard. I'd like to see the monument removed via the courts, but not sure if that'll happen to this one, though, don't know enough details behind how it was erected yet (but it should never have been erected in the first place, IMO).

Even with him being mentally ill, I think it says a lot that he didn't see fit to run down the Ten Commanments monument after it was moved to the lawn of the OCPA building.

[Midtowner]

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.

[jerrywall]

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.

Either you're being argumentative for no reason, or you're absurdenly ignorant. Either way, I'm not going to engage. Good day. I didn't tut tut anyone and I'm not playing your typically childish games.

[ctchandler]

Bunty,
I haven't seen it at that location, but it seems to me that I read in the paper that access was more difficult.
C. T.

[ctchandler]

Bunty,
And just to correct and clarify, it was a little smart-alecky of me to point out that you said third instead of second, I think I must have been in argumentative mood. Does anybody actually think I knew the number without googling it? A good Christian would have but not me! Sorry friend. I think I need an attitude adjustment once in a while.
C. T.

[Midtowner]

Either you're being argumentative for no reason, or you're absurdenly ignorant. Either way, I'm not going to engage. Good day. I didn't tut tut anyone and I'm not playing your typically childish games.

There's just no need for the anti-Catholic bias and the assumption that all faiths, and let's be honest, when the biggest Christian denomination by far, interprets things differently than you do, they are different, but not wrong.

If you think the Catholic Church ignores the bit about graven images, you might want to go do a little research on how that Church views that concept.

These 10 Commandments monuments are nothing but Dominionist bull****. They want to do this because they want to show who is in charge. I have faith the courts in Arkansas will get to the same conclusion their sister courts in Oklahoma did. There's no reason for the destruction of public property. I'm sure some lobbying headquarters in Little Rock will happily place the 10 Commandments on their lawn.

[bchris02]

These 10 Commandments monuments are nothing but Dominionist bull****. They want to do this because they want to show who is in charge. I have faith the courts in Arkansas will get to the same conclusion their sister courts in Oklahoma did. There's no reason for the destruction of public property. I'm sure some lobbying headquarters in Little Rock will happily place the 10 Commandments on their lawn.

I agree with this. I don't have any problem with Ten Commandments monuments that are actually historical. The only reason they are building them today though is a way for the Christian Right to show who is in charge. That's why it HAS to be on public property. Private land near public land isn't good enough.

[bombermwc]

Agreed Midtowner and bchris. I'm very much a Christian and very much opposed to these being on public grounds like this. And if they do, then i'm going to be in favor of anyone else being able to do the same...Muslim, Jewish, Satanism, etc. If you think Christians deserve placement, then ALL deserve placement. But more correctly, NONE of them should be there at all. Keep religion out of politics.

[Laramie]

Doesn't matter to me one way or another about the 10 commandments monument being displayed on the capitol grounds. Once you allow grounds for this monument, then you open the door to allow other denominations or pagans to want their right to display.

As a Roman Catholic, there is a lot of symbolism in our churches. By no means to we worship these symbols; they are just reminders--no different than the use of a pic of Jesus Christ, photograph or placeholder.

IMO we need to continue to separate church from state. These symbols & monuments do not define who we are as people; add or detract from our faith.

[2Lanez]

Most churches believe it's a violation of the 3rd commandment to put up a 10 Commandments monument on their property, so it's hard for the mentally ill to find such a monument to destroy.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

I don't think "the mentally ill" would have had any issue with a 10 Commandments statue on church property.

[Rover]

Really? I'm not sure many churches follow the 10 commandments that strictly. Catholics obviously abandoned the 3rd commanded centuries ago, and protestant churches don't tend to adhere to them either.

May be one of the most ignorant things I've read on this or other boards in quite some time.

[jerrywall]

May be one of the most ignorant things I've read on this or other boards in quite some time.

Really. Feel free to counter the argument oh great one.

Graven images iss a rough translation from carved or wooden images. It was a proscription on icons of religious figures, be it Christ on a crucifix, saints, the Virgin Mary, etc. Have you
ever seen shrines in a caholic house. How about protestants wearing crosses. So please, oh wise one, tell me how I'm ignorant.

I'll wait over here. Eating my meat from cloven hoofed animal (another commandment we totally adhere to).

Paul's letter to the Philippians basically said that the commandment against graven images didn't apply. This was likely done because so many Roman converts were used to the idea of shrines in their homes.

[bchris02]

Catholics worship statues? News to me.

Attack the Catholic Church where it deserves to be attacked--a history of condoning the severe abuse of powerless persons, persecution of heretics, abusing of children, etc. Tut tutting them for not toeing the Protestant line in the Protestant interpretation of the 10 Commandments, which while neat, I think we'd all pretty much agree are just as much God's law according to any serious Christian theological perspective as that which may be found in Leviticus.

I agree with this.

Growing up strict Baptist, perhaps the only thing I knew about Catholics growing up is that they supposedly "worshiped statues" and prayed to Mary instead of Jesus and that they were not Christian and going to hell. This has become a pet peeve of mine; Baptists not only attack and condemn the "unbelieving world" but also other Christians who might not practice their faith in the same way they do. Here is a Catholic article responding to the claim that they worship statues.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-ca...orship-statues

There is plenty that is wrong with the Catholic church, but I wish Baptists would stop spreading misconceptions about them.

[jerrywall]

I agree with this.

Growing up strict Baptist, perhaps the only thing I knew about Catholics growing up is that they supposedly "worshiped statues" and prayed to Mary instead of Jesus and that they were not Christian and going to hell. This has become a pet peeve of mine; Baptists not only attack and condemn the "unbelieving world" but also other Christians who might not practice their faith in the same way they do. Here is a Catholic article responding to the claim that they worship statues.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-ca...orship-statues

There is plenty that is wrong with the Catholic church, but I wish Baptists would stop spreading misconceptions about them.

There was nothing in my post attacking anyone. I merely expressed surprise that someone thinks any of the Christian religions would ban monuments based on the commandments. For the most part the majority are no longer strictly followed. Paul modified several of them in his various letters. the commandment wasn't about worshipping, it was about creating any religion figures or icons. Since this was common for many of the religions at the time, it was something that set the Israelites apart. Much like the restrictions on what animals could be consumed, it served a purpose that was more than religious. If you look at my post, I called out Protestant religions too. So the butthurt people with reading comprehension need to get over their victimhood.

[jerrywall]

Or I guess these monuments all over the country are being paid for and pushed by atheists, since so many seem to think all Christians strictly adhere to the 10 Commandments.

Who knew. I guess the roads should be empty tomorrow. No driving on the Sabbath you know.

[Midtowner]

Really. Feel free to counter the argument oh great one.

Graven images iss a rough translation from carved or wooden images. It was a proscription on icons of religious figures, be it Christ on a crucifix, saints, the Virgin Mary, etc. Have you
ever seen shrines in a caholic house. How about protestants wearing crosses. So please, oh wise one, tell me how I'm ignorant.

Perhaps I missed the explanatory notes in the Old Testament as to exactly what constitutes "graven images." Again, your Protestant leanings are not understood to be universal truth. While you might believe what you are saying is true, I might just accuse you of poor scholarship. The "shrines" you are referring to are not literally being prayed to. They represent in most cases a Saint who you petition through prayer to intercede on your behalf with God.

No need to reinvent the wheel, read this link if you want to understand where the Catholics are coming from.

Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." (Psalm 115:4-5, 8; see also Isaiah 44:9-20; Jeremiah 10:1-16; Daniel 14:1-30). God, however, is the "living God" (Joshua 3:10; Psalm 42:3; etc.) who gives life and intervenes in history. Catechism of the Catholic Church 2112

I'll wait over here. Eating my meat from cloven hoofed animal (another commandment we totally adhere to).

And this is just being flippant. You said the Catholics ignore the 3rd Commandment, I think the posters here are charging you with ignorance and trying to point out to you that just because your tiny, tiny sect compared to the Catholic Church believes something, your tiny, tiny sect is not necessarily right or wrong. Neither are the Catholics right or wrong. It's all about faith. Even if you believe the Bible is literally true (not required for Catholics), there is still considerable grey area in that the Bible did not come with explanatory notes and definitions.

[Midtowner]

Who knew. I guess the roads should be empty tomorrow. No driving on the Sabbath you know.

I'm sure you're familiar with the Christian concept of Original Sin and the effect Christ's sacrifice had upon it. I thought that was a pretty universal concept in both Protestant and Catholic churches.

This is the Catholics' position on the 3rd Commandment:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p3s2c1a3.htm

[jerrywall]

To me you're arguing over a simple statement, just to be an ass. My statement? Most Christian religions don't have a strong stance against a ten commandments based monument, because they don't adhear to the old testiment that strongly. This isn't a contravsial statement unless you're an argumentative pissant looking for a fight. If you disagree, it's a simple yes no answer.

[jerrywall]

Perhaps I missed the explanatory notes in the Old Testament as to exactly what constitutes "graven images."

Maybe you should have gone to seminary. Graven was a rough translation from the original Hebrew which means carved or wooden. Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

[jerrywall]

. The "shrines" you are referring to are not literally being prayed to. They represent in most cases a Saint who you petition through prayer to intercede on your behalf with God.

So you pray to a shrine while not praying to a shrine? Interesting counceler.

[Rover]

So you pray to a shrine while not praying to a shrine? Interesting counceler.

Your ignorance on the subject is astounding and offensive. Fools should just keep their mouths shut.