Urban Renewal in OKC vs other cities

[Pete]

Just trying to provide context. I don't believe things "are getting bad" and I don't see the point of sweeping, hyper-critical generalizations.

I'm a little concerned about the exodus from the Planning Department but remember, they recommended the SC demo application be denied.

I'm critical when I feel I can be specific and justify it with more than just my opinion. I've said all the way along that OCURA should have been involved at the Stage Center site, and even demonstrated how it could have been handled and how they had ample assets to make it happen. I've been very critical of the whole process, including the ruse perpetrated by Rainey Williams and OG&E. I've tracked the Project 180 budgets and scope in more detail than anyone and was one of the first to challenge the misinformation I believe they have been spreading. I actually agreed with Ed Shadid when he said that OKC was operating as a benevolent plutocracy and documented the massive amount of influence a few people have in what are supposed to be citizen-driven committees and decisions.

I've been critical of the Dowell Parking Garage, the way Nick Preftakes (and Devon) have handled an entire city block, etc., etc.

I've also been extremely positive in pointing out we have a pretty big group of local developers who seem to be taking responsibility for quality design and development, often going well above and beyond the minimum planning standards. I also think we have a pretty impressive and emerging collection of local architects and designers who are doing a great job. The trend is definitely strongly upward.


Perhaps you are just sensing how I am pushing back on criticism that is far too general and poorly supported. And I always try and link to specific information when others make some negative, baseless claim.


There is a fine line between educated, informed, constructive criticism -- which is greatly needed in OKC -- and just moaning about how design standards suck, or all we have is X without enough Y (even though it's easy to find ample evidence that belies such claims), and that we are way behind other communities is some vague way that can't be supported or even properly articulated.

I also believe if you are a long way from a particular goal, you have to plot specific, incremental, reasonable and actionable steps to get to where you want to be.

[Spartan]

Just trying to provide context. I don't believe things "are getting bad" and I don't see the point of sweeping, hyper-critical generalizations.

I'm a little concerned about the exodus from the Planning Department but remember, they recommended the SC demo application be denied.

I'm critical when I feel I can be specific and justify it with more than just my opinion. I've said all the way along that OCURA should have been involved at the Stage Center site, and even demonstrated how it could have been handled and how they had ample assets to make it happen. I've been very critical of the whole process, including the ruse perpetrated by Rainey Williams and OG&E. I've tracked the Project 180 budgets and scope in more detail than anyone and was one of the first to challenge the misinformation I believe they have been spreading. I actually agreed with Ed Shadid when he said that OKC was operating as a benevolent plutocracy and documented the massive amount of influence a few people have in what are supposed to be citizen-driven committees and decisions.

I've been critical of the Dowell Parking Garage, the way Nick Preftakes (and Devon) have handled an entire city block, etc., etc.

I've also been extremely positive in pointing out we have a pretty big group of local developers who seem to be taking responsibility for quality design and development, often going well above and beyond the minimum planning standards. I also think we have a pretty impressive and emerging collection of local architects and designers who are doing a great job. The trend is definitely strongly upward.


Perhaps you are just sensing how I am pushing back on criticism that is far too general and poorly supported. And I always try and link to specific information when others make some negative, baseless claim.


There is a fine line between educated, informed, constructive criticism -- which is greatly needed in OKC -- and just moaning about how design standards suck, or all we have is X without enough X (even though it's easy to find ample evidence that belies such claims), and that we are way behind other communities is some vague way that can't be supported or even properly articulated.

I also believe if you are a long way from a particular goal, you have to plot specific, incremental, reasonable and actionable steps to get to where you want to be.

It's not that you push back against poorly supported criticism, but rather criticism that isn't your own. I say this with mutual respect, but my criticism isn't uneducated or poorly informed as you just generalized. I too push back against stuff that damages the credibility of the forum, but there really are scandals here. The MAPS Central Park really is a cluster, and just for perspective when P180 was in the same stage it was showing no signs of mismanagement. It truly appears that nobody cares about this park despite all the money being thrown its way.

And design standards do suck.

[Pete]

It's not that you push back against poorly supported criticism, but rather criticism that isn't your own. I say this with mutual respect, but my criticism isn't uneducated or poorly informed as you just generalized. I too push back against stuff that damages the credibility of the forum, but there really are scandals here. The MAPS Central Park really is a cluster, and just for perspective when P180 was in the same stage it was showing no signs of mismanagement. It truly appears that nobody cares about this park despite all the money being thrown its way.

And design standards do suck.

I challenge criticism that I think is either incorrect, misplaced, unsupported or entirely too broad.

And there is a lot of valid criticism that I don't challenge.

[Spartan]

Then why in the face of innumerable examples of demolitions running rampant, do you deny that we have a demolition problem?

Here is a blog post I wrote on demolition becoming rampant...back in 2009. 3-4 years ago, and we've just gone a lot further down that path since I've been documenting this.
A Downtown ontheRange: Building demolition rampant

Now the ball is in Preftakes' court. OKC may be addicted to historic demolition.

[ljbab728]

Then why in the face of innumerable examples of demolitions running rampant, do you deny that we have a demolition problem?

Here is a blog post I wrote on demolition becoming rampant...back in 2009. 3-4 years ago, and we've just gone a lot further down that path since I've been documenting this.
A Downtown ontheRange: Building demolition rampant

Now the ball is in Preftakes' court. OKC may be addicted to historic demolition.

Spartan you have mentioned here and in your blog a few examples of buildings being demolished in the last several years but to characterize it as "rampant" is far from accurate.

[Spartan]

Then what is rampant? Do we need to tear down 10 more to make a case for historic negligence on the part of the community, or 20?

I don't understand how anyone can post in one thread that the Film Exchange is a useless nondescript building that should come down and then that we don't have a historic problem. While the two remarks are definitely congruous, the problem is then you.

Either you appreciate historic buildings or you don't. You can't like them after they're saved but not before, and that's where most of you fall, which isn't fair. You are then the problem that preservationists have to work so hard to overcome.

[ljbab728]

Then what is rampant? Do we need to tear down 10 more to make a case for historic negligence on the part of the community, or 20?

I don't understand how anyone can post in one thread that the Film Exchange is a useless nondescript building that should come down and then that we don't have a historic problem. While the two remarks are definitely congruous, the problem is then you.

Either you appreciate historic buildings or you don't. You can't like them after they're saved but not before, and that's where most of you fall, which isn't fair. You are then the problem that preservationists have to work so hard to overcome.

That's all very nice, Spartan and you make good points. It has nothing to do with my comment, however. I hope when you say "you", you aren't referring to me. I never made the comments that you referenced.

Here is Webster's definition of rampant.

Definition: rampant
Part of Speech Definition
Adjective 1. Unrestrained and violent; "rampant aggression".[Wordnet]
2. Rearing on left hind leg with forelegs elevated and head usually in profile; "a lion rampant".[Wordnet]
3. (of a plant) having a lush and unchecked growth; "a rampant growth of weeds".[Wordnet]
4. Ramping; leaping; springing; rearing upon the hind legs; hence, raging; furious.[Websters]
5. Ascending; climbing; rank in growth; exuberant.[Websters]
6. Rising with fore paws in the air as if attacking; -- said of a beast of prey, especially a lion. The right fore leg and right hind leg should be raised higher than the left.[Websters]
7. Being wild, rabid, unbridled, savage or ferocious. [Eve - graph theoretic]
8. Being frantic or frenzied. [Eve - graph theoretic]
9. Being violent, fierce, vehement or intense. [Eve - graph theoretic]
10. Adjective base of the adverb rampantly.[Eve - graph theoretic]

I don't see anything there that could apply to the demolition of buildings in OKC for the last few years.

[TheTravellers]

Found this a few days ago, but haven't read it yet, should be interesting with hindsight...

Urban Renewal Authority Annual Report – 1973

[Pete]

Reviving this old thread because I recently watched a great documentary about New York's old Penn Station that was demolished in 1963 to make way for Madison Square Garden.

I sort-of knew the story but did not comprehend how huge and amazing this building was. It was the size of St. Peter's in Rome and perhaps the most beautiful structure ever built for the public. But it was completely owned by Penn Railroad and when they needed the money due the advent of car and plane travel in 60's, they sold the development rights to the arena group. (If you were a fan of Mad Men you may remember the episode where Sterling Cooper considered taking on the PR for the new project.)

At the time, there was not even a preservation committee in New York, but that all changed due to this issue.

Interesting reminder how things were in the 60's across the U.S. and how every single American city handled the need for redevelopment in ways that caused many great buildings to be destroyed.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/penn/

[gopokes88]

Reviving this old thread because I recently watched a great documentary about New York's old Penn Station that was demolished in 1963 to make way for Madison Square Garden.

I sort-of knew the story but did not comprehend how huge and amazing this building was. It was the size of St. Peter's in Rome and perhaps the most beautiful structure ever built for the public. But it was completely owned by Penn Railroad and when they needed the money due the advent of car and plane travel in 60's, they sold the development rights to the arena group. (If you were a fan of Mad Men you may remember the episode where Sterling Cooper considered taking on the PR for the new project.)

At the time, there was not even a preservation committee in New York, but that all changed due to this issue.

Interesting reminder how things were in the 60's across the U.S. and how every single American city handled the need for redevelopment in ways that caused many great buildings to be destroyed.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/penn/

Counter point though, MSG is amazing in its own right

[HangryHippo]

Counter point though, MSG is amazing in its own right

It is, but doesn’t remotely touch the grandeur of what it replaced. Tragic loss.

[Martin]

regarding the old penn station, this quote has always stuck with me:

Through [Pennsylvania Station] one entered the city like a god. Perhaps it was really too much. One scuttles in now like a rat.

[Sooner.Arch]

I just watched some documentaries about the Penn Station yesterday. Currently, they are reviving the James A. Farley Building and plan on making it the Moynihan Station by 2020. This will include Amtrack and the LIRR. Penn Station will still be there for now but there are plans to redesign it. This and many more plans are part of a $100 billion dollar plan for New Yorks Infastructure. There also is a campaign to completely rebuild Penn Station how it used to be at a cost of about $3.5 Billion. I dont believe this is happening though because 2 years ago Govenor Cuomo came out with new plans for Penn Station

Heres a link showing renders and explanning the new Penn Station ( hasnt been started)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFwrbtRwrpk

Heres an article of the group that is trying to get the orginal Penn Station rebuilt
https://archpaper.com/2017/11/preser...lery-0-slide-0

Heres a link showing the new Moynihan Station that is currently under construction for $1.6 billion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j76YUz0I6ik

[dankrutka]

That PBS Penn Station documentary is fantastic, Pete. I highly recommend it.

I was just in Sacramento (which I really enjoyed) and I learned about how they had the largest population of Japanese people outside of Japan until forced removal to incarceration camps during WWII. Eventually, entire blocks of Japanese businesses, buildings, and theaters (Hollywood used to have decent presence there) were all destroyed. An entire cultural district is just gone. This is my re-telling from my tour guide so take it with a grain of salt, but she seemed to be very knowledgeable. Every time I learn more about a city I tend to find these stories.

Anyway, I appreciate the premise of this thread too. One common refrain on this board often implies that various negative issues -- whether razing buildings, passing bigoted or "morality" laws, etc. -- only happen or are worse in Oklahoma. Having lived outside the state for the last 7 years, I can attest that at least Kansas and Texas have all the same kinds of problems. It's comical to me how often Texas is held up as some utopia with all the absurdity happening in the state. Anyway, none of this is to say Oklahoma can't/shouldn't do better, but that most of Oklahoma's problems (failing to fund education is the one issue where I think the state may really "lead" the nation) are present in most other states too.

[bluedogok]

When I lived in Dallas (91-93) and worked in the Arts District area of downtown from our 27th floor windows you could see surface parking everywhere. An article in Texas Architect magazine had an article about urban renewal in Texas and the slow rebuild due to the bust. One statement in the article was the 42% of the land in the Dallas CBD was surface parking. The lot across Bryan on our side of the building still had the floor tiles of the former buildings on the parking lot. One of the partners said that street frontage was all two and three story building with little shops.

It became an issue when I was there because there was an old building that was slated to be torn down simply because of property taxes. Since Texas and especially the urban counties rely on them for their budgets it was stated that was the primary reason why there were so many open properties. Demolition came with the change from "improved property" to "unimproved property" and the tax cut that came with it.

[traxx]

Counter point though, MSG is amazing in its own right

To each their own, I suppose, but can you really say that with a straight face?

From this:



to this:

[Rover]

MSG is no masterpiece, either inside or out. The thing that makes it anything special is just that it is plopped down in the center of Manhattan.

[Jersey Boss]

MSG3 which was replaced by the current MSG4.

[David]

Interesting to see this thread come up. Just last week I went in and out of NYC through Penn Station, and I noticed the MSG up top while I was walking up to the Broadway area. I failed to remember back to it at the time, though I want to say I've read about this particular redevelopment in the past.

[gopokes88]

To each their own, I suppose, but can you really say that with a straight face?

From this:



to this:

Because it’s the garden. The Mecca of hoops. And I love hoops. So um, yes I can.

That other building is cute tho

[Sooner.Arch]

Was on street view in New Mexico and found this, reminded me of the Baum Building

[Rover]

Was on street view in New Mexico and found this, reminded me of the Baum Building

Yes, it's great, but what happened to the bottom 10 floors?

[Sooner.Arch]

the one in New Mexico actually looks like the bottom of the Baum Building