Heritage Hills and Mesta Park residents seek to discourage neighborhood traffic

[onthestrip]

In addition to hiring Johnson & Associates, the group also paid attorney David Box to represent their interests at yesterday's traffic commission meeting.

All items for the 38 new stop signs passed.

All passed? Well the backers of this should know that this will have zero effect on me, I will continue to used walker and shartel to go through HH/MP as I usually do.

[catch22]

I don't necessarily blame the residents of the neighborhood from wanting less traffic, slower traffic, and less noise. The fact is, they do not own the streets. So compromise should have been sought by the city.

The city really needs to weigh the needs of many, not the needs of the few, especially when it comes to streets the entire city owns.

The unintended consequence is overall noise will increase while air quality decreases from more pollution because instead of cars coasting through with minimal changes to engine speed, people will constantly be accelerating (at high starting RPM) and braking at every stop sign. At rush hour, the frustration of traffic combined with "get-home-itis" may actually cause people to drive even more aggressively thus creating more noise and chances for conflicts and accidents.

I think the city could have reached compromise in the middle. Drivers need alternate routes, neighborhoods need safe streets. Compromise: add some stop signs, but not an overbearing amount. Best solution at a higher cost, but likely safer, would be to change the street layout to naturally calm traffic.

[rollwithit]

A necessary change for the near area would be to raise the speed limit on Broadway from north of automobile alley to the curves at it approaches 23rd to a reasonable speed and cut out the speed traps. There is an embarrassingly low amount of volume on that stretch and it is built to handle so much more it seems. That could take some stress off the near neighborhood infrastructure. No?

[turnpup]

A necessary change for the near area would be to raise the speed limit on Broadway from north of automobile alley to the curves at it approaches 23rd to a reasonable speed and cut out the speed traps. There is an embarrassingly low amount of volume on that stretch and it is built to handle so much more it seems. That could take some stress off the near neighborhood infrastructure. No?

Agree. Plus, the police frequently use that stretch of Broadway as a (for lack of a better term) speed trap, which perhaps discourages people from using it as well. We drive it on a daily basis, and you're correct that there's not much volume on it. Sure seems like it'd be a good alternative if the speed were increased slightly.

[shawnw]

A necessary change for the near area would be to raise the speed limit on Broadway from north of automobile alley to the curves at it approaches 23rd to a reasonable speed and cut out the speed traps. There is an embarrassingly low amount of volume on that stretch and it is built to handle so much more it seems. That could take some stress off the near neighborhood infrastructure. No?

Agree. Plus, the police frequently use that stretch of Broadway as a (for lack of a better term) speed trap, which perhaps discourages people from using it as well. We drive it on a daily basis, and you're correct that there's not much volume on it. Sure seems like it'd be a good alternative if the speed were increased slightly.

I think you guys are saying the same thing. However I'll note that the speed limit on Broadway is already higher than Walker. Also, I don't know the history, but I wouldn't be surprised if, based on road design, the speed limit wasn't higher at some point and lowered due to complaints. Any long time HH-East residents around to chime in? Has it "always" been 30mph?

[dankrutka]

Here's the question that comes out of this, if there was not traffic-count evidence for putting in 38 new stop signs, does that mean every neighborhood is now entitled to 38 new stop signs to deter traffic in their neighbrohoods? Is that the precedent that has been set?

[d-usa]

Probably depends, like much of any kind of politics, on how much your city council rep likes you.

[TheTravellers]

Probably depends, like much of any kind of politics, on how much your city council rep likes you.

And how much money you have to hire folks that will push it through for you.

[Buffalo Bill]

And how much money you have to hire folks that will push it through for you.

...and whether you have 3000 cars a day coming down your street.

[Uptowner]

...and whether you have 3000 cars a day coming down your street.

Where's the traffic data to support this?

[Buffalo Bill]

Where's the traffic data to support this?

I'm reading it from the first item on the Traffic Commission agenda relative to this subject. 3144 vehicles a day.

[shawnw]

Who pays for the stop signs and the construction? I missed that

[TheTravellers]

...and whether you have 3000 cars a day coming down your street.

So? The MUTCD has specific criteria that should be met for stop sign placement, and none of these intersections met that criteria or the Traffic Commission's criteria (which is probably the same as the MUTCD's).

C'mon, just call it what it is - some residents that don't want people driving through their neighborhood and used their money and influence on the Traffic Commission to put stop signs (wrongly) in place to try to make that happen.

[TheTravellers]

Who pays for the stop signs and the construction? I missed that

Coincidentally, while looking at the Traffic Commission's website, I believe Stuart Chai said somewhere on it that neighborhoods will never have to pay for signage, so I guess the city does.

[jompster]

Coincidentally, while looking at the Traffic Commission's website, I believe Stuart Chai said somewhere on it that neighborhoods will never have to pay for signage, so I guess the city does.

Unless it's a privately-owned street, and then the residents of the street would. There are a few of those in Sunny Pointe that the city refuses to improve/sign because they are "white sign" streets.

[Canoe]

I think you guys are saying the same thing. However I'll note that the speed limit on Broadway is already higher than Walker. Also, I don't know the history, but I wouldn't be surprised if, based on road design, the speed limit wasn't higher at some point and lowered due to complaints. Any long time HH-East residents around to chime in? Has it "always" been 30mph?

There is and was a ton of drunk drivers that end up in the park. People have died and public property has been damaged.

[shawnw]

Thanks for the info, so generally a bad idea to increase the speed on Broadway, mostly because of that curve around the fire station...

[Uptowner]

I've witnessed several cars launch over that curb at the bottom of the hill. It is quite spectacular. The boys at station 5 must Just be used to it because the time I stopped to check on the kids they were already running out with their first responder gear.

[Ross MacLochness]

Thanks for the info, so generally a bad idea to increase the speed on Broadway, mostly because of that curve around the fire station...

And for the folks who live on either side of broadway. The speed is already high enough and is a very dangerous street to walk across. (I do it frequently) I don't think any residential street should be considered an arterial road. It's just simply unsafe. The highway is right there you can get on downtown or at 23rd. There is no need for broadway or rob to be speedways when actual people live on those streets.

[Uptowner]

Are you suggesting people drive to the interstate instead of travel from midtown to uptown (and vice versa) rather than use an street that was designed to be used as a thouroghfair? EVERY section of the grid has thouroughfairs. Drexel, villa, youngs, Indiana, McKinley, Shartel, walker, and Robinson. These are all residential steeets...yet they are designed to move more traffic by design from their inception. wait a minute...don't people live on penn avenue too?!! We have to do something about this people. It's nots safe. Pennsylvania must be lowered to 25 and stop signs installed every block. We should address NW 30th and 36th while we're at it. Won't someone please think of the children??

I'm not complaining about a 30mph on broadway but it is insane to think that any non residential traffic flowing through this 1mile block is simply an assault on their privicy and property and the cars should just go around using broadway and Classen.

[Pete]

As an update, the decisions of the Traffic Commission are final unless a citizen -- any citizen -- appeals.

If there is an appeal, then the whole matter goes to the City Council for debate and vote.


My understanding is that these decisions will be appealed and therefore there will be more discussion at City Council.

[Ross MacLochness]

Are you suggesting people drive to the interstate instead of travel from midtown to uptown (and vice versa) rather than use an street that was designed to be used as a thouroghfair? EVERY section of the grid has thouroughfairs. Drexel, villa, youngs, Indiana, McKinley, Shartel, walker, and Robinson. These are all residential steeets...yet they are designed to move more traffic by design from their inception. wait a minute...don't people live on penn avenue too?!! We have to do something about this people. It's nots safe. Pennsylvania must be lowered to 25 and stop signs installed every block. We should address NW 30th and 36th while we're at it. Won't someone please think of the children??

nah I'm saying let all streets be pretty much equal, including those that were designed as thoroughfares. (unless they are used primarily as thoroughfares and not streets for living, shopping, etc.) I have no problem with cars travelling down any residential street, but don't favor one over the other. I think traffic would naturally disperse throughout the grid creating a safer environment on all streets for both walking and driving. This set up would likely not hinder the time it takes to drive from point a to point b either since flow wouldn't be limited by stoplights and congestion. (keep in mind I only advocate this for streets, not roads. Roads should be disigned solely for autos: wide streets, limited access, etc.)

Adding a stop sign at every intersection isn't the answer, but neither is a high speed limit wide stroad that runs down the middle of a neighborhood. If I were king I'd make physical changes to the residential streets to calm traffic naturally and remove all stop signs. Ideally, traffic would be forced to drive slow allowing pedestrians and cars to be able to share the street safely and allowing cars to flow without stopping entirely.


The residents definitely should have more say than a commuter on how these streets are designed since they are the ones actually living there 24/7 and not just using them to pass through. As more people begin using the core for living rather than as a destination for work or play, we are going to see more conflict between people who use the streets for living and people who use the streets as roads for commuting.

[Uptowner]

nah I'm saying let all streets be pretty much equal, including those that were designed as thoroughfares. (unless they are used primarily as thoroughfares and not streets for living, shopping, etc.) I have no problem with cars travelling down any residential street, but don't favor one over the other. I think traffic would naturally disperse throughout the grid creating a safer environment on all streets for both walking and driving. This set up would likely not hinder the time it takes to drive from point a to point b either since flow wouldn't be limited by stoplights and congestion. (keep in mind I only advocate this for streets, not roads. Roads should be disigned solely for autos: wide streets, limited access, etc.)

Adding a stop sign at every intersection isn't the answer, but neither is a high speed limit wide stroad that runs down the middle of a neighborhood. If I were king I'd make physical changes to the residential streets to calm traffic naturally and remove all stop signs. Ideally, traffic would be forced to drive slow allowing pedestrians and cars to be able to share the street safely and allowing cars to flow without stopping entirely.


The residents definitely should have more say than a commuter on how these streets are designed since they are the ones actually living there 24/7 and not just using them to pass through. As more people begin using the core for living rather than as a destination for work or play, we are going to see more conflict between people who use the streets for living and people who use the streets as roads for commuting.

This is extremely rational. But keep in mind that using the streets for commuting is using the street for living. My native stretch of Dewey or Walker or Hudson, etc in the uptown/paseo/jefferson park stretch of the road that someone is going to use to drive up/down to get to their home in crown heights AFTER passing through HH. But I understand that importance to the success of the districts and neighborhoods to let the roads flow with autos and cyclists and peds all alike.

I understand your sentiment on the residents having more say than the commuter. But they are not traffic engineers. The streets were NOT designed to flow traffic 1 mile in opposite directions around the established grid to avoid houses. And just because some folks hired an engineering firm to draw graphics and conduct a study doesn't make it right. As the data clearly supports these signs don't meet the standard guidelines.

[riflesforwatie]

My feeling is that the only part of Broadway between 13th and 23rd that is actually designed for 30 mph is the curve at the fire station. The rest of it might be signed for 30 mph, but it's designed for 50 mph. This is why the police use it as a "speed trap" and why it's so dangerous for pedestrians. I agree with parts of what (I think) both Ross and Uptowner are saying: design the road so that people actually take it at 30 mph. Those that still feel the need to drive faster can take I-235. The street grid still has an Auto Alley-Uptown thoroughfare (at 30 mph, as opposed to the 25 mph streets like Harvey, Hudson, etc.) and pedestrians would be safer crossing the redesigned road.

[Pete]

^

Exactly right.

That stretch is wide open with almost zero cross traffic and no stop lights or signs. It's very hard not to edge up over 40, as going anywhere near 30 seems completely wrong for that stretch.

The curve comes at the very end and could be addressed in other ways.