Heritage Hills and Mesta Park residents seek to discourage neighborhood traffic

[LakeEffect]

I think this is what people in this thread are missing. I drive through and used to run through these neighborhoods often, and speeding wasn't really an issue. I really think this is about the owners not wanting anyone driving through these neighborhoods, regardless of how fast they drive.

Ding ding, we have a winner.

[AP]

From the application found here: https://agenda.okc.gov/sirepub/mtgvi...doctype=AGENDA



It is clear the desire is to reduce traffic as a whole in the neighborhood.

[Pete]

As I stated in the article.

Read the letter from Johnson & Associates, which Carey hired to try and push this through.

[AP]

^Right, it just felt like some other posters were trying to sweep this under the rug as normal and say that this wasn't really the objective when it is clearly stated that it is in that letter.

[Pete]

Couldn't have made it more clear in the article.

Sometimes I think people don't read things very well.


Also, keep in mind that Carey is the heir to the Carey Lumber fortune and lives in a huge house and no doubt paid this engineering firm out of his pocket to do this big study in an attempt to get what he wants from the City. This does not happen in other neighborhoods, mainly because no one is going to pay that type of money.

Only after he had Johnson do this did he go back and seek the petition signatures, as they are required by the City.


It's very clear what is going on here and if this somehow passes, it will say a lot about how people of means are treated by the government vs. the common man.

[AP]

Sometimes I think people don't read things very well.

100% agree

[riflesforwatie]

I read this yesterday and purposely took Harvey from Midtown to Uptown last night instead of Broadway, Lincoln, or 235 like I might have otherwise done.

[TheTravellers]

...
It's very clear what is going on here and if this somehow passes, it will say a lot about how people of means are treated by the government vs. the common man.

Not to bring politics into this and not intended to create any new discussion, but we already know the answer to that, it's been the way the entire USA has been for a few decades now... Rich white folks (men, especially) get all they want, screw everybody else.

[OKCisOK4me]

100% agree

Some of us don't read things very well at 4:20am

[Spartan]

Maybe the solution then isn't more stop signs but bump outs at the intersections or other physical changes to the environment. Cars will slow if the street is designed to force them to do so!

This. Especially on 13th. I think if they tackle speeding on 13th and Classen, the way that traffic is mostly pretty calm (and slow) on 23rd, it will set the pace for how drivers go through HH and MP.

That said I am 100% for a neighborhood being very involved in traffic planning within its own confines. This is great IMO. If this helps HH residents let go of what happens in 4th floor sex shops across 13th, I'm all for it. Urban co-existence is all about compromising and giving both sides as much of what they want as possible.

As long as they don't close a SINGLE street, they can put a 4-way at every single intersection if they so fancy. They'll only drive themselves insane lol.

[foodiefan]

. . . will still have to drive on "their" streets on my way to St Luke's!! Too bad, so sad!!

[Teo9969]

If this passes we should do drive-bys.

Wait...not THOSE kind of drive-bys. drive-bys like sit-in drive-bys. Protest drive-bys.

Maybe drive-throughs is a more appropriate term.

[Spartan]

So do people who drive through believe they are more entitled to the streets than the people who live on them?

I don't see class undertones at all here. We have a lot of low-income areas of Columbus just completely overran with pass-through commuters, bumper to bumper going 45 on streets signed for 35 that should be 30. I think it's totally reasonable for residents to demand traffic calming of their own streets.

Besides Walker, which is the street that connects best from downtown to 23rd, has already had stops at every block for years. Even though you don't have to stop once going through Midtown or Paseo/J Park (until 30th).

Most good urban neighborhoods in Chicago have four-way stops at every corner, except for major thoroughfares like Fullerton or Halsted (compare to Western).

[jerrywall]

Except it doesn't seem like speeding is an issue here. Just "other people" using "their" streets.

[Pete]

Public streets belong equally to everyone.

And OKC's traffic and density is nothing like Chicago.


OKC has specific methods to test traffic, speed and accidents and all 38 of these proposed stop signs fail those standards.

[turnpup]

So do people who drive through believe they are more entitled to the streets than the people who live on them?

I don't see class undertones at all here. We have a lot of low-income areas of Columbus just completely overran with pass-through commuters, bumper to bumper going 45 on streets signed for 35 that should be 30. I think it's totally reasonable for residents to demand traffic calming of their own streets.

Besides Walker, which is the street that connects best from downtown to 23rd, has already had stops at every block for years. Even though you don't have to stop once going through Midtown or Paseo/J Park (until 30th).

Most good urban neighborhoods in Chicago have four-way stops at every corner, except for major thoroughfares like Fullerton or Halsted (compare to Western).

Thank you for saying what you said about the class undertones, Spartan. I was starting to feel kind of creepy about the direction this conversation has taken. My first thought was to post something along the lines of, "Hello, my name is Terri and I'm a nice person. Please don't stereotype me or make sweeping generalizations about me because I happen to live in a certain neighborhood."

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the viewpoint of someone who's actually here and actually goes to neighborhood meetings where this has been discussed in detail, I'll tell you the way I was made to understand the traffic plan. It isn't nearly as sinister as some would make it seem. There are major arterial streets in OKC—Robinson, Western, and Classen—feeding into downtown which are probably better-suited to commuters coming and going who do not wish to take the highway. They have higher speed limits and/or more/wider lanes and not as many traffic signals or stop signs. Encouraging use of those streets by commuters might help keep pedestrians safer in the neighborhood. So the plan adds stop signs with the hopes that it'll slow people down and/or get them to use Robinson and/or Western/Classen. That's the way it was explained to us at these meetings.

Whether or not the proposed plan will work if implemented, I cannot say. I will say that we had a similar situation in my previous neighborhood, Linwood Place, years ago. We lived on 19th Street on a corner with no stop sign. Cars had two or three blocks where they could pick up a good deal of speed before they had to stop. It was scary because Linwood is also a pedestrian-oriented neighborhood. Residents wanted to encourage the use of 16th and 23rd rather than 19th for people just wanting to get from point A to point B, so we began the process of petitioning for a stop sign.

Just like HH/Mesta, the traffic counts didn't add up to the right amount to automatically call for a stop sign and we were turned down. However, after developing a rapport with Mr. Chai, we were able to convince him to recommend placement of a sign nevertheless. And we got one. So the city will make exceptions, even when the traffic counts aren't at the benchmark level. If HH/Mesta gets the stop signs without the traffic, they definitely won't be the first. And nobody had any kind of power or influence in our group. We just worked very hard and were able to make the city see our point of view. In the end, I don't know if there were actually fewer cars using 19th, but I know the stop sign helped. Full disclosure—I also saw a bunch of people run that lovely stop sign!

As I've said before, I have no dog in this particular fight. I'm not affiliated with the committee/people working on the traffic proposal. We've only lived here a little over a year, and the traffic proposal has been ongoing for at least two years. We already have a stop sign on our corner anyway. We live across the street from a church (of which we have become members because they're such good neighbors and good people) on a very busy intersection with tons of cars passing through and parking in front of our house and along the side of it just about every day. We chose our house knowing full well that the area was a sea of activity. Cars and people (whether they be neighbors or non-neighbors) don't bother us at all.

This is purely anecdotal, but the folks we hang out with here in the 'hood all are super-excited about the development in Midtown, and never ever express any desire to exclude those not living here. Everybody we know takes full advantage of all the new restaurants, shops and hotels that are springing up within walking distance. With respect to the traffic plan, what I hear them saying is simply that they hope pedestrians (not just residents, mind you) can have a good, safe experience while walking, jogging, cycling, and the like.

So that's my $.02. I sure hope we can get back to a little more civil tone and discuss the merits of the plan rather than making character judgments about people.

[Pete]

^

Terri, a very rich man paid an engineering firm a lot of money to do a study to try and influence the City on all of this.

The public / petition part came later as it was required before they would consider what he wanted / proposed.


This isn't a simple matter of a bunch of nice neighbors getting together to crusade for a stop sign or two. Especially when the letter submitted with this specifically says the goal is discourage and divert people from driving these streets through 38 (!!) new stops.

And, not coincidentally, exactly zero of those stops meet *any* of the minimum standards set forth by the City as an objective way to deal with every neighborhood that wants do exactly what is trying to be accomplished here.
.

[bradh]

I tend to side with Spartan and turnpup on this.

I drive through these areas quite a bit getting to my wife's office, and I see people speeding all the time through there. I know that's not what the stated goal was, but in my small bit of data gathered it is a problem.

[turnpup]

Pete, I can't speak to anything you may know about Mr. Carey. I don't know his personal motives. What I do know is that he's donated a huge amount of his time to the project on behalf of the neighborhood association (and, like it or not, it's what the governing board has decided to try). I have no idea whether or not he's donated funds as well, but that would certainly be within his rights to contribute financially to the neighborhood.

Work on the proposal has been ongoing for at least a couple of years, to no fruition. I would suspect (and again, I'm just speculating here) that the committee finally decided to get some outside help with it *because* they haven't been able to get the city to implement it. For all these comments about white/male/rich/powerful people having so much influence, I have to ask--if that's the case, then why has it been two years and the proposal HASN'T gotten any traction?

The tone of the thread had become really negative and mean-spirited things were being imputed to ALL residents, which I do not believe is fair. I also do not believe it is fair to single out and demonize Bill Carey. As I said before, we can debate the merits of this proposal all day long and that's a good thing. Civil, healthy, debate. What's *not* a good thing, and a slippery slope, is to personally attack and stereotype people based on nothing more than speculation.

[Jeepnokc]

I used to live on the corner of NW 21st and Robinson. Speeders were a huge problem down Robinson. I always thought that Robinson should get a stop sign or two. Broadway makes more sense as a main route into downtown that doesn't snake through a neighborhood.

However, stop signs won't deter people going through the neighborhood but hopefully would slow them down. I office off Walker and Sheridan. If I am going to eat at Thai house, drake, or in paseo.....I am going straight up Walker regardless of stop signs as makes no sense to go over to Classen or over to Broadway. I don't see anything wrong with slowing down the traffic in neighborhoods. If we want people to live in the urban areas...we have to make it a safe place for them to raise their kids. That is a major reason we no longer live at 21/Robinson.

[Jeepnokc]

If this helps HH residents let go of what happens in 4th floor sex shops across 13th, I'm all for it.

What 4th floor sex shops are there on 13th? Asking for a friend

[Teo9969]

Speeding is always a problem. Again, you address that through changing the driving environment. You must make a driver feel *unsafe* driving above 25 MPH.

As to arguing against what Pete is saying, he's mostly just stating facts, not even making an argument. The only argument I see being made by Pete is against, a rich man basically throwing money around to get his way on public streets. That is what is happening. It's not conjecture, it's not debate. It's fact. Are we okay with that or not?

[Teo9969]

What actually needs to happen is that we need to promote Walker as a bisecting thoroughfare. Walker should be built to be safely traveled at 30/35 MPH and then build out the other streets to 20/25MPH.

[tfvc.org]

Why not put in some roundabouts and speed bumps? Why stop signs? It seems like bumps and roundabouts would better deter people.

[Pete]

In addition to hiring Johnson & Associates, the group also paid attorney David Box to represent their interests at yesterday's traffic commission meeting.

All items for the 38 new stop signs passed.