Luthern Church okays same sex marriage

[okieopus]

thanks for the clarification, either way it should be open to everyone.

I think we both agree here

[Winterhawk]

"Gay marriage is so unnatural, and it is wrong in God's eyes."

I agree with your point, but beyond that, what bearing does anybodys god's opinion have on civic law?

I am pretty sure there is a Constitutional Amendment that spells out that one.

[kahloist]

I agree with you Winterhawk. Personally I do not think homosexuals should marry. There is no problem with leaving the marriage to the heterosexuals. However I strongly support civil unions.

[Winterhawk]

I agree with you Winterhawk. Personally I do not think homosexuals should marry. There is no problem with leaving the marriage to the heterosexuals. However I strongly support civil unions.

I think you misread me. I also think you highlight to center of the problem. It is the word marriage that religion wants to take ownership of.

I don;t care if you named a scarament or rite after it. I don;t care what you do inside the walls of you church's organization, I am not a member.

What I want, and what homosexual couples are entitled to is equal rights and protections under the law. Period. Use whatever word you like as long as they get the same rights as a heterosexual married couple, and have have to go through the identical process as a heterosexual couple to get a civic marriage, I don't care what term you use.

People getting all angry over one word they think they own.

[kahloist]

Oh I understand what you are saying. Nothing would please me more than to be able to have a little ceremony and a big ring with the man of my dreams that just happens to be lying on the sofa watching a movie right now. However I worry not because it's just a decadent tradition full of pretention.

[Winterhawk]

Oh I understand what you are saying. Nothing would please me more than to be able to have a little ceremony and a big ring with the man of my dreams that just happens to be lying on the sofa watching a movie right now. However I worry not because it's just a decadent tradition full of pretention.

I am not worried about the ceremony either. But the use of two words lends itself to a system of two standards. I want two people, regardless of orientation, to be able to be joined in a civic bond that entitles them equally.

[Karried]

Today was the funeral of a client of mine, one who I had a deep admiration and one I deeply cared about. He was gay. He had a brain tumor that aggressively overtook him within one month. I never got to say goodbye and I am so saddened.

What makes me more sad is that his life partner who has been with him for over 20 years probably will never be able to fully grieve because he can't say to people, I just lost my ' spouse '. In fact, he won't be able to say to many people here in Oklahoma that he just lost his life partner without fear of scorn.

I was trying to find a book to give him today in Barnes and Noble on grief and it hit me that most likely, he will grieving alone and much longer than other people in a traditional marriage. How do you explain to the hospital when they tell you family members only? And he will have to go through much more hassle and inconveniences to get his affairs in order. He won't get social security benefits or other benefits that married people get when they lose a spouse.

These are rights that he has earned, the right to be by the side of someone who is dying and who he loves.... and the right to grieve his loss with acceptance and sympathy from others.

How did people get so 'holier than thou' to say that these people should be penalized for not conforming to what they think is right and for loving a person fully?

[Shaggy]

I am not worried about the ceremony either. But the use of two words lends itself to a system of two standards. I want two people, regardless of orientation, to be able to be joined in a civic bond that entitles them equally.

I don't think so. This discussion has gone from bad to worse. Just reading your comments makes me ill. I'm outa here.

[Winterhawk]

I don't think so. This discussion has gone from bad to worse. Just reading your comments makes me ill. I'm outa here.

Well I am sorry that you were unable to read typed words of objective opinion regarding Separation of Church and State.

I am sorry you find providing equal rights to all citizens of the country to be a topic that upsets your stomach.

However I will not apologize for the free expression of opinion. You are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine, and we are both entitled to express those opinions in whatever mediums we find available to us.

Homsexuality may conflict with many people's personal views, but it is not the right of religion to impose its rules on a state that by law is supposed to be separated from the interests of the church (or religion, spirituality).

My intention was not to offend, and if you take my comments as such, that is your perogotive. However I would prefer that if your opinion differs you state a concise argument on your behalf. I am not asking you to be homosexual, but I am asking that those law abiding citizens of this country, who pay their taxes, are given the same rights as everyone else.

[kahloist]

Very well said. It's just too bad that more people do not have an open mind and allow their sight to reach past the end of their own nose.

[Karried]

However I would prefer that if your opinion differs you state a concise argument on your behalf.

I don't think that's possible - insults and slurs are so much easier.

Spelling 'ill' is much simpler than spelling Compassion or Acceptance.

Reminds me of high school bullying - if you're different, you get picked on and called names. Makes the name caller feel so powerful, so superior and perfect. Much simpler than trying to understand and possibly open your mind to someone who might act differently.

These are the same issues that women and minorities and children and countless others had to fight for throughout history. Human Rights - I can almost visualize some of the parents of these anti-gay posters saying the same things about minorities a few years ago. And their great great grandparents saying the same things about women voting... or children not being beaten - it's about equalizing rights of human beings - not forcing you to embrace a lifestyle you don't agree with.

You don't have to agree but again, it's the way you disagree that can really tragically hurt others.

[PUGalicious]

You don't have to agree but again, it's the way you disagree that can really tragically hurt others.

Nicely put.

[ColumbiaCowboy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy
"Gay marriage is so unnatural, and it is wrong in God's eyes."



I agree with your point, but beyond that, what bearing does anybodys god's opinion have on civic law?

I am pretty sure there is a Constitutional Amendment that spells out that one.

Please be more careful with these quotes...it could be interpreted that I said it was unnatural, and that is of course not my stand.

Being gay is perfectly natural for some people it absolutely is NOT wrong in God's eyes and we should not only allow but encourage gays to get married. Far better than just screwing around.

[paypay04]

Just another liberal-minded church to approve same sex marriage. I think I'll be staying at my conservative Southern Baptist Church that believes what the Bible says in Romans.

-----------------
ELCA Allows Gay Unions, Rejects Gay Clergy

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America voted Friday to allow the blessing of same-sex unions under certain circumstances but rejected a recommendation to ordain non-celibate gay clergy.

Saturday, Aug. 13, 2005 Posted: 8:42:16AM EST

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America voted Friday to allow the blessing of same-sex unions under certain circumstances but rejected a recommendation to ordain non-celibate gay clergy.

After hours of heated debate and discussion over the wording of the two controversial recommendations, members of the ELCA Churchwide Assembly voted 670-323 to approve the measure on same-sex unions.

The recommendation does not officially change the denomination’s stance on gay marriage. Instead, it urges members to abide by a 1993 statement that prohibits same-sex unions and allows “pastoral care” to same-sex couples. The vague wording of this statement has been interpreted as allowing for exceptions to the prohibition.

“The blessings door has been swinging back and forth in the ELCA, perhaps since 1993. This assembly has propped the door open firmly. By what authority can the ELCA bless homosexual relationships? Scripture clearly doesn’t authorize sex outside of marriage,” said Rev. Jaynan Clark Egland, president of the conservative WordAlone network, in a press statement.

Both opponents and proponents of blessing same-sex unions tried and failed to get the resolution more specific. And after several hours of votes, assembly adopted one slight change that made the wording even more ambiguous; the amended recommendation dropped the reference to giving pastoral care to “same-sex couples” and in its place included “all to whom [pastors] minister.”

Egland said this amendment does not change the recommendation’s openness to same-sex blessings.

Later in the day, the assembly voted 490 to 503 against a resolution that would give exceptions to the no non-celibate gay clergy rule. It would’ve taken a two-thirds majority to pass.

Conservatives applauded the vote.

“Thankfully, at least the assembly didn’t disregard the authority of God’s Word concerning the standards for church leaders,” said Egland.

However, pro-gay members, wearing rainbow sashes and white T-shirts, filed to the front of the ballroom and stood in front of the podium in protest.

Both proposals came out of recommendations from a Studies on Sexuality task force that was assigned four years ago to find out the role of homosexuality in the church. The third recommendation that called for unity in the church despite differences passed nearly unanimously at 851 to 127.

The debates on homosexuality were the most anticipated at the ELCA churchwide assembly, which is meeting in Orlando, Fla., from Aug. 8-14. Proponents of homosexuality hoped the church would follow in the direction of more liberal counterparts, such as the United Church of Christ that last month adopted a policy statement equating gay marriage to traditional marriage. Conservatives hoped the church would turn back to the traditional understanding of scripture that views homosexuality as sin.

However, in essence, the votes made no real change in ELCA policy. Current policy expects ministers – both homosexual and heterosexual - to refrain from sexual relations outside marriage, which it defines as “a lifelong covenant of faithfulness between a man and a woman.”

At a news conference after the voting, Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson said he knew “however the vote turned out, some would be disappointed.” But he added that he “hopes that those disappointed in the votes would not sever their relationship with the church or step back” from their involvement.

I hope that "everyone hears it clearly -- all week as we have discussed publicly and clearly -- that gay and lesbian persons are welcome in this church,” he said."

can some one tell me what the luthern church is about?

[Easy180]

I attend the church of sleeping in, but this is from wikipedia

Lutheranism traces its origin to the work of Martin Luther, a German Augustinian monk, priest, and theologian who sought to reform the practices of the Western church in the 16th century. The symbolic beginning of the Reformation occurred on October 31, 1517 when Luther posted his 95 theses on the door of the castle church in Wittenberg. Luther's ideas are generally held to have been a major foundation of the Protestant movement.


[edit] Doctrine

[edit] Central doctrines
The material principle of Lutheranism is the doctrine of justification: salvation by God's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide), revealed through scripture alone (Sola Scriptura). Lutherans believe this grace is granted for the sake of Christ's merit alone (Solus Christus). Traditional Lutheran theology holds that God made the world, including humanity, perfect, holy, and sinless. However, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, trusting in their own strength, knowledge, and wisdom.[4][5] Because of this Original Sin — the sin from which all other sins come — all humans are born in sin and are sinners.[6] For Lutherans, original sin is the "chief sin, a root and fountainhead of all actual sins."[7]

Lutherans teach that sinners cannot do anything (i.e. "good works") to satisfy God's justice.[8] Every human thought and deed is colored by sin and sinful motives.[9] Because of this, all humanity deserves eternal damnation in hell.[10] God has intervened in this world because he loves all people and does not want anyone to be eternally damned.[11] By God's grace, made known and effective in the person and work of Jesus Christ, a person is forgiven, adopted as a child and heir of God, and given eternal salvation.[12] For this reason, Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the grace of God made manifest in the birth, life, suffering, death, and resurrection, and continuing presence by the power of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:13). Lutherans believe Jesus Christ is both by nature God (Col. 2:9) and by nature man (1 Tim. 2:5) in one person (John 1:14), as they confess in Luther's Small Catechism that he is "true God begotten of the Father from eternity and also true man born of the Virgin Mary".[1]

Lutherans believe that individuals receive this gift of salvation through faith alone[2] — a full and complete trust in God's promises to forgive and to save (Heb 11:1). Even faith itself is seen as a gift of God, created in the hearts of Christians (Ps. 51:10) by the work of the Holy Spirit his means of grace, the Word (John 17:20, Rom. 10:17) and the Sacraments (Mat. 26:28, Tit. 3:5). It is important to note the words — through faith (Rom. 3:22), not by faith. Faith is seen as an instrument that receives the gift of salvation, not something that causes salvation (Eph. 2:8). Thus, Lutherans reject the so-called "decision theology" which is common among modern evangelicals.

Traditionally, Lutherans have accepted monergism, which states that salvation is by God's act alone, and reject the doctrine that humans in their fallen state have a free will concerning spiritual matters (1 Cor. 2:14, 12:3, Rom. 8:7). Instead, they believe that the elect are predestined to salvation (Acts 13:48, Eph. 1:4–11). Properly understood, the doctrine of predestination is simply another way of expressing the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. Lutherans disagree with those that make predestination the source of salvation rather than Christ's suffering, death, and resurrection. Unlike some in Calvinism, Lutherans do not believe in a predestination to damnation (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9).[3]

Lutherans are not dogmatic about the number of the sacraments. Some speak of only two sacraments[13]: Holy Baptism and Holy Communion. They teach that Holy Baptism is a saving work of God (1 Pet. 3:21), mandated and instituted by Christ[14]. Thus it is administered to both infants (Mat. 19:14, Acts 2:38–39) and adults (1 Cor. 1:14). Children born to practicing Lutheran families are usually baptized shortly after birth. Holy Absolution (John 20:23) is also confessed to be a sacrament. [15][4]

Holy Communion, which the Lutherans also call the Sacrament of the Altar, the Holy Eucharist, or the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11:20), they believe to be the true body and blood of Christ "in, with, and under" the bread and wine for all those who eat and drink it (1 Cor. 10:16, 11:27), a doctrine that the Formula of Concord calls the Sacramental union.[5]

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Lutherans believe that all who trust in Jesus alone can be certain of their salvation, for it is in Christ's work and his promises in which their certainty lies (Rom. 8:33). They teach that, at death, Christians are immediately taken into the presence of God (2 Cor. 5:8), where they await the resurrection of the body at the second coming of Christ (1 Cor. 15:22–24). Lutherans do not believe in any sort of earthly millennial kingdom of Christ either before or after his second coming on the last day (John 18:36).[6]

Although Lutherans believe that good works do not satisfy God's wrath, this is not to say that they hold good works to play no role in the Christian life (Tit. 2:14). Good works are the fruit of saving faith (John 15:5), and always and in every instance spring spontaneously from true faith (2 Cor. 9:8). Any true good works have their true origin in God (Phil 2:13), not in the fallen human heart or in human striving (Rom. 7:18, Heb 11:6); their absence would demonstrate that faith, too, is absent (Mat. 7:15–16, Tit. 1:16). [7]


[edit] The Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions
The formal principle of Lutheranism is the Bible. Lutherans believe the Bible is divinely inspired and is the final authority for all matters of faith and doctrine. Lutherans also hold that Holy Scripture is explained and interpreted faithfully by Scripture itself. This teaching is expanded upon in the Book of Concord, a series of Confessions of faith composed by Lutherans in the 16th Century. Traditionally, Lutheran pastors, congregations, and church bodies agree to teach in harmony with the Lutheran Confessions. Some Lutheran church bodies require this pledge to be unconditional, while others allow their congregations to do so "insofar as" the Confessions are in agreement with the Bible.

As a vital key to interpreting the Bible and fully understanding the Gospel of justification by faith in Jesus, Lutherans have articulated and practiced the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.[16] In their view, without this proper distinction, the Bible becomes a closed book and the Gospel, unclear.

Over the history of the Lutheran tradition, views on the nature of "biblical authority" have varied. Martin Luther held that the scriptures were the Word of God in as much as they preached "Christ crucified" and as the only reliable guide for faith and practice. Later, the 17th-century period of Lutheran scholasticism emphasized more strongly a theology of biblical inerrancy. In the 20th- and 21st- centuries, Lutheran groups continue to vary on the nature and limits of biblical inerrancy, with each group claiming to represent the true Reformation position. Conservative groups tend to stress biblical inerrancy and the theology of 17th-century Lutheran scholasticism (for example, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod), and more moderate and liberal groups seek to combine Luther's emphasis on "what preaches Christ crucified" with the use of the higher criticism method of biblical interpretation (for example, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).