Streetcar

[Zuplar]

Should a streetcar route replicate a successfule bus route, i've been wondering if the embark system should run a bricktown to midtown route to get those folks used to a route like the streetcar plans propose, i get maybe thats the wrong approach if in fact the bus and streetcar are intended to serve different crowds. The best I can find is the 050 "Downtown Discovery" route, it runs from the Downtown Transit Center to the Bass Pro and back around thru B-town, its sort of part of the streetcar route. I can't find a bus route that runs up toward Saint Anthony, or that part of Midtown.
http://embarkok.com/use/schedules?route=050 heres that 050 route its like half of the streetcar route.
edit: the 050 route is free and for some reason it doesn't being operating until 10 A.M. on most days, and of course like all the busses doesn't operate on sundays.

I agree that would be a good idea and would probably help promote ridership and early adopters.

[jn1780]

It won't serve every visit or every purpose. You're right, Bricktown is too small to use it for going from the Melting Pot to the Criterion. What if you're going to Dust Bowl after dinner? What if you're at St. Anthony's dropping your mom off for a procedure that will take 2 hours? The streetcar is right or front and you can go to Bricktown to Fuzzy's for a quick lunch without touching your car. There's a ton of possibilities!

There is an increasing number of people living in Bricktown also. It will be a great asset for anyone working in downtown and eventually the OU health complex when that segment is added.

[Zuplar]

I imagine if this leads to a grocery store down there people that live down there will be super happy. Can't blame them, it'd be annoying to live in such a walk able area and not have a grocery store you can walk to.

[Anonymous.]

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

So what are you saying? First you mention how you don't see the value in this, then say how you can see how people who live downtown would see value in this. It seems you are just rambling on about your thoughts. Like, we get it - you personally don't plan to use the streetcar that much and you think it will be a nuisance to drive around. The people voted on this 8 years ago, in that time, significantly more people and businesses have come into situations where the streetcar will be a net positive.

[Zuplar]

So what are you saying? First you mention how you don't see the value in this, then say how you can see how people who live downtown would see value in this. It seems you are just rambling on about your thoughts. Like, we get it - you personally don't plan to use the streetcar that much and you think it will be a nuisance to drive around. The people voted on this 8 years ago, in that time, significantly more people and businesses have come into situations where the streetcar will be a net positive.

Yes you read that right I don't see value in it, but I can see how people down there would if they get a grocery store. Those are two thought processes from two perspectives. So what I'm saying is essentially what you reiterated to answer your question.

[dankrutka]

I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas.

First, OKC is never going to be Dallas or Portland. However, I would actually argue that a streetcar will allow OKC to have more of a small town feel. Remember, OKC used to have a streetcar. It would be a return to OKC's urban roots. More than anything, a successful streetcar will bring the best of urban neighborhoods for those citizens in OKC who don't want to base their lives around their cars. Everyone does not have to choose this option, but it's best for OKC if people don't have to move away to have that lifestyle option.

[hoya]

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

You know that Dallas is the opposite of what the streetcar people want the city to be, right?

Oklahoma City is about 0.5% urban and 99.5% suburban. Whatever we do downtown, you'll still have the rest of the city that will be pretty much the same as it is now.

[Zuplar]

First, OKC is never going to be Dallas or Portland. However, I would actually argue that a streetcar will allow OKC to have more of a small town feel. Remember, OKC used to have a streetcar. It would be a return to OKC's urban roots. More than anything, a successful streetcar will bring the best of urban neighborhoods for those citizens in OKC who don't want to base their lives around their cars. Everyone does not have to choose this option, but it's best for OKC if people don't have to move away to have that lifestyle option.

Interesting insight. I do appreciate it. To many people like to go with the status quo, so my only intent was to give a different perspective, which I'm glad you get. One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

[Zuplar]

You know that Dallas is the opposite of what the streetcar people want the city to be, right?

Oklahoma City is about 0.5% urban and 99.5% suburban. Whatever we do downtown, you'll still have the rest of the city that will be pretty much the same as it is now.

I think you missed the point in my comparison.

I don't know what you mean by "we" but as an OKC resident, downtown is just as much a part of my city as it is those who live downtown. I'd bet most of the people that frequent that area don't live there and never plan to. My point being is it's good to get perspective from everyone who goes downtown. Everyone's approach is different and it's nice to hear those different perspectives instead of just telling people they can use the rest of the city.

[Ross MacLochness]

Interesting insight. I do appreciate it. To many people like to go with the status quo, so my only intent was to give a different perspective, which I'm glad you get. One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

Whether or not urbanization detracts from the uniqueness of big league city suburbanism doesn't matter. As a city we must urbanize or we die a slow economic death.

[Zuplar]

Whether or not urbanization detracts from the uniqueness of big league city suburbanism doesn't matter. As a city we must urbanize or we die a slow economic death.

That's a fine opinion to have. I disagree though.

[AP]

You can disagree if you want. It doesn't mean the facts back up your opinion.

[Zuplar]

You can disagree if you want. It doesn't mean the facts back up your opinion.

Sure. Anything can be cherry picked.

[hoya]

I think you missed the point in my comparison.

I don't know what you mean by "we" but as an OKC resident, downtown is just as much a part of my city as it is those who live downtown. I'd bet most of the people that frequent that area don't live there and never plan to. My point being is it's good to get perspective from everyone who goes downtown. Everyone's approach is different and it's nice to hear those different perspectives instead of just telling people they can use the rest of the city.

"We" as a city. I don't live downtown either.

This city will be helped tremendously by having a strong urban core. The city is much, much better served by getting a thousand new residences downtown than they are by getting a thousand new houses out on NW 150th and MacArthur.

[LocoAko]

I imagine much of the ridership will either be convention goers and people out drinking at night, with limited use by daily commuters at least for now. I just wish I lived downtown and could take advantage of this in a regular manner. I've really missed public transit since leaving the Northeast.

[soonerguru]

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

FYI we didn't do it because KC did. KC did it because we voted for ours. They just moved faster to complete it and it's been a success. You would rather OKC stay a third tier city? We won't agree on what makes a city better but I bet we can agree the Thunder has helped our city. There were a lot of folks who thought that would be a flop. There were people saying, "Why can't we just support the Blazers and Redhawks?" There are miles upon miles of suburban and low density settings in OKC for you to enjoy. It doesn't seem as if you really enjoy Downtown much anyway. Maybe you would prefer spending time on the Memorial corridor, or Northwest Expressway. There are many areas of town you can enjoy that offer amenities but lack urbanity.

[dankrutka]

One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

It's important to point out that OKC is not that much more suburban than peer cities in population and geography. Just because OKC city limits encompass a larger amount of space, doesn't mean it's necessarily more suburban. OKC still has density and there is just a lot of undeveloped land within the city limits. If OKC re-drew the lines tomorrow to not be so vast, would it be a different city? OKC has an inner core like most cities. I do not think OKC's arbitrary boundaries (which most people don't even know of) make it unique in any meaningful way to people.

I actually think it is dense districts that define any city. When I was growing up in the '90s in Tulsa, no one thought OKC was unique because of it's vast city boundaries. Everyone thought it just lacked character because of it's lack of dense, vibrant districts. Tulsans could point to Cherry Street and Brookside. In my opinion, OKC's renaissance has actually been about the city reclaiming it's identity with Bricktown, Midtown, Automobile Alley, the Plaza District, etc. Those areas are what makes OKC unique even if it's the dense districts of other cities that define their cities too.

[KayneMo]

^ Indeed. I once redrew OKC's city limits on Google Earth following along the boundaries of census tracts so I could get an accurate population count and got it down to 127 sq mi and about 421,000 people (2010 Census data) for a density of 3,300/sq mi for the whole city, contrary to OKC's current city limit density of 1,050/sq mi.

[Zuplar]

FYI we didn't do it because KC did. KC did it because we voted for ours. They just moved faster to complete it and it's been a success. You would rather OKC stay a third tier city? We won't agree on what makes a city better but I bet we can agree the Thunder has helped our city. There were a lot of folks who thought that would be a flop. There were people saying, "Why can't we just support the Blazers and Redhawks?" There are miles upon miles of suburban and low density settings in OKC for you to enjoy. It doesn't seem as if you really enjoy Downtown much anyway. Maybe you would prefer spending time on the Memorial corridor, or Northwest Expressway. There are many areas of town you can enjoy that offer amenities but lack urbanity.

How about I'll enjoy and go where I want, and you can stop making assumptions on where you think I should spend my time.

The arrogance and onesidedness on this forum is getting out of hand. I've been a good member for awhile now, making contributions where I can, sharing insight and personal opinions, and a different perspective at times. I visit a few other forums on the internet, none with as much cool local info as this, but yet I find so many of the people on here blatantly rude, and only interest is to attempt to belittle and prove their superiority. It's extremely disheartening because in all reality I have a greater chance of running into most of you folks, than anyone else I associate with on another forum, yet the amount of disrespect I see (and I'm not really even talking towards my opinions) is uncalled for.

With that being said I'm not trying to pick on you directly soonerguru, although I don't appreciate your disrespect, it's more of a rant to numerous members on this board. Clearly my opinions and perspective are not welcomed by some so I'd recommend to those to navigate to my profile and add me on your block list so you can skip my comments.

[betts]

Sure. Anything can be cherry picked.

While I'm on the streetcar subcommittee and so have a bias, I also am approached by people because they know I'm on the streetcar subcommittee. I have never gotten one negative comment in the 7+ years we've been working on this. The most negative thing I hear is frustration about how long it's taking. And, while I live downtown, I haven't always done so and have many friends who live in Northwest Oklahoma City. They're all excited about being able to park somewhere and ride the streetcar to various events/restaurants/bars, etc. Remember, the streetcar touches or is a block from the Civic Center, the Art Museum, the Bombing Memorial, the new central park, Midtown, St. Anthony's, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, the Chesapeake Arena, the Bricktown Ballpark, the Convention Center, Bricktown. If you work downtown and the weather's bad you can ride the streetcar to Midtown or Bricktown for lunch. People staying in hotels aren't stuck eating within a few blocks of their hotel. The streetcar did poll high, and that was despite the lack of interest the Chamber and many downtown businesses had in it initially. They likely would have been happy if it had polled poorly, so I don't suspect any manipulation to make it appear more popular than it was.

[Urban Pioneer]

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

Zuplar, I think that alternate opinions are fine and stimulate dialogue. Quite frankly, it's cool to see debate on all of these issues. I'd like to address a wide variety of thing including elements in this earlier statement just so that the history is clear.

1. Everyone needs to keep in mind that this project was first conceived in 2005. The campaign for it officially began in 2008. Back then, there was a greater quantity of legitimate landline telephones that enabled a higher level of accuracy in our polling. Your criticisms about polling accuracy are not inaccurate if you apply it to today's context. It is much more difficult to poll today and takes greater resources to do so with accuracy.

2. Portland was the inspiration for the streetcar. I was working for a company in the suburbs of Portland but staying downtown. I found the streetcar inspiring and wanted to bring that here. My father was a bus driver who worked his way up to managing a transit system. I saw the potential for the streetcar in OKC as part of an overall public transit effort. The 2005 Fixed Guideway Study gave this idea legitimacy because it was the selected mode for the core of the broader Regional Transit System that is still currently under development. These other cities referenced, Kansas City, Cincinnati, etc actually came after voters approved our system. They were not a factor in our campaign. The streetcars we referred to were Portland, Seattle, and Tacoma. Tucson was our sister city at the time in trying to get a program off of the ground. These other systems came into play and were installed quickly because of the Obama Administration and the Stimulus Program. We were not part of that. Those monies ushered in streetcar systems with haste throughout the country.

3. In reference to other comments, streetcars will not inhibit traffic flow in most areas and will actually expedite travel alongside as lights turn green for the trains. Some stops will actually be removed from traffic. Others that are within mixed traffic will cause people to stop or go around the train just as they would a city bus.

4. It is really frustrating to me that it has taken nine years to get to a groundbreaking. However. I am thrilled that we can learn from other cities and avoid mistakes that others have made in their designs.

5. I think for any citizen to fully understand the impact of the streetcar, they need to literally walk the route. Downtown OKC 2017 is not the downtown of 2008 when this was first proposed. Developers have literally made decisions on where to locate and at what density level specifically due to the streetcar route. There is extraordinary diversity along the line. Housing for all income levels, businesses of all types and our main civic centers are along this line. This system is for everyone. I am tired hearing people demonizing this project who couldn't tell you one institution or business name along the line. The assertions often made are uneducated.

Best wishes to all of you.

[Urban Pioneer]

https://freepressokc.com/maps-3-streetcar-work-begins/

[dankrutka]

Great work, Urban Pioneer. Your effort is appreciated. Just to be clear on my end, my concerns about the success of the line do not mean I am excited about it for OKC. I hope for nothing more than this line to gain great ridership, stimulate core development, and lead to expansion of the system thooughout the metro. Keep up the great work.

[ABCOKC]

To me, the most interesting aspect of this project (and I guess streetcars in general) is the way ridership and investment feed off of each other. Like, some developers will see the rails in the ground and decide to build along the route. This in turn creates more places along the route that people want to get to, meaning more people will presumably ride the streetcar. As more people ride the streetcar, developers become even more anxious to develop along the route, and so on and so forth.

Most excited to see what development we get along Robinson; with the streetcar running down it from 10th St all the way to Sheridan it seems to be the best way to start connecting the CBD to Midtown, and as of now there are tons of surface lots waiting to be developed.

[gopokes88]

The street car is going to turn automobile alley into a very cool very unique area. The steady flow of tourists up the street car will feed the restaurants, boutiques and breweries. Tourists downtown will either hop on the bricktown loop or AA loop. I have no idea how it will go over with local residents, but there will be a solid base of tourists using it.