Newsom/Christian murders

[jbrown84]

Did not sound like an attack to me. Sounded like an effective counterpunch to a previously offered argument.

Keep in mind that the same hideous, incomprehensible evil that manifested itself in this circumstance is the same one that overtook Cho at Virginia Tech, McVeigh in OKC, the murderers at Columbine....

Rest assured that some sociopathic attorney will defend these monsters, and try to explain away their evil in light of a "terrible childhood" or a "psychological problem." That's all it takes these days.

And no, we are absolutely not all "good at heart." That's because the heart of man is fundamentally corrupt and unable to comprehend "good." And just between you, me, and the grand piano, our mutual definition of "good" is really just nothing more than being better than the "least bad" we see anywhere else.

When we combine that into a single definition, being "good" doesn't mean a thing. That's why saying "people are good" is a hideous, misguided trap.

-soonerdave

Well said Dave.


I did not mean to take this off topic, although this is a lot closer to topic than a lot of threads.


When you do something bad, like lie to your boss or say something rude to a coworker, is it because of the way your momma raised you or is it an instinctive move of self-preservation?

[Tim]

"Hideous, misguided trap"? Bit harsh there Dave. If I'm understanding what you are both trying to communicate to me, (and please correct me if I've misunderstood you) the nature of man is evil, and that good behavior only comes with acceptance of your religous beliefs. Bad behaviour is to be blamed on a "hideous, incomprehensible evil" which I assume would be Satan.
To answer your question, I believe that lying and rudeness are learned behaviors, just like politeness and gentility are taugh.

[Easy180]

Gotta agree with Tim again...Lying is definitely learned...See others get away with it and go unpunished and follow suit...One of the easier behaviors to pick up is why it starts so young

[jbrown84]

You are misunderstanding.

Not all "evil" is "hideous and incomprehensible". Dave was referring to the particular drive that led the people he mentioned to do such heinous things. There are those who do hardly anything wrong, and there are mass murderers. But everyone, despite their religion, does wrong. Satan need not be involved (although I believe he is in such drastic cases). One simply has to fall prey to their own instinctive, subconscious desire for self preservation and self centeredness.

I am not saying that accepting my religious beliefs (or anyone's for that matter) is required for one to learn "good behavior". There are many non-religious people who do far more good deeds than bad ones.

But you have to admit that what is considered good and bad is based historically on religious ideals.

[jbrown84]

Gotta agree with Tim again...Lying is definitely learned...See others get away with it and go unpunished and follow suit...One of the easier behaviors to pick up is why it starts so young

The actual practice of lying is learned, yes, but it is a manafestation of our true nature.


If you can imagine the most primitive culture imaginable, do you think they would be closer to Bono or closer to these barbarians that killed, raped, tortured, etc? There's a reason for this.

[PUGalicious]

The actual practice of lying is learned, yes, but it is a manafestation of our true nature.

I wonder. As a Christian, how do you reconcile this statement with the knowledge that we are created by God in His image?

[Easy180]

The actual practice of lying is learned, yes, but it is a manafestation of our true nature.


If you can imagine the most primitive culture imaginable, do you think they would be closer to Bono or closer to these barbarians that killed, raped, tortured, etc? There's a reason for this.

I have no doubt in my mind that even back in primitive civilizations there were a good amount of Bono's running around

[writerranger]

This exact same discussion has transpired over 2000 years. I doubt if it will be resolved on OKCTalk.

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[jbrown84]

I wonder. As a Christian, how do you reconcile this statement with the knowledge that we are created by God in His image?

It simply means that unlike animals and plants, humans have the ability to think rationally and learn right from wrong.

[PUGalicious]

So God created beings that are inherently evil?

[jbrown84]

Yes, but only so he could recieve glory by providing a way for them to be saved.

[Karried]

I had read this story before in the media, but it still sickens me.

I agree with Writterranger.. I was thinking about the Duke rape case.. 4 white guys 'rape' a black woman.... you had Sharpton, Jackson and everyone else all over it... pretty much ruined these kids lives .. over a lie. They were on every TV program known to man...

This is the truth and they have evidence and a dead body to prove it.. but where is the outrage? Where is the marching and TV appearances?

I'm going to email the snopes story to Mr Sharpton.. if I can find his email.. anyone know where to get it? I'm sure he is public.. everyone else knows how to get ahold of him when they feel 'abused'.

It is a pathetic and horrible commentary on our society.

[SoonerDave]

I wonder. As a Christian, how do you reconcile this statement with the knowledge that we are created by God in His image?

And Man is a fallen creature, fallen from the ideal of that Godly image through sin. As a result of that fall, we all cursed with what is described as a "sin nature." To do right in His eyes is not our instinct. That's why the notion of human "goodness" is fallacious.

If I'm understanding what you are both trying to communicate to me, (and please correct me if I've misunderstood you) the nature of man is evil, and that good behavior only comes with acceptance of your religous beliefs. Bad behaviour is to be blamed on a "hideous, incomprehensible evil" which I assume would be Satan.

Tim, the problem with how you've restated the position is that you've walked back into the "good behavior" trap. Man is evil, and has an inherently sinful, erring nature. "Good behavior" isn't the right measure, for the reasons I stated earlier. There's no magic formula that says accepting what you describe "my" religious beliefs will lead to "good" behavior. As a Christian, I acknowledge that sinful and evil nature, and wage a daily battle to live as God desires and as Christ demonstrated - that's the whole battle of "putting on the new man," as the New Testament describes it. It's a daily effort. I make no holier-than-thou assertions that I'm "better" or more of a "good" person than anyone else, because I have no business making such assertions. I can only hope to be more of the person Christ wants me to be today than I was the day before. And I promise I don't even achieve that goal.

If, at the other extreme, there is no recognition (or fundamental rejection) of that evil nature, an individual leaves themselves prone, defenseless, and increasingly hardened to the compromises that nature exposes to them. It leaves smoldering a fire of self-centeredness, wherein your own desires, lusts, whims, and angers are transformed into a personal sense of manifest destiny.

As I roll into a third paragraph, I'm going to stop, because I feel like I've hijacked the thread without meaning to, and I guess I have to blame it on my previous response. My apologies.

-soonerdave

[writerranger]

I see some of you STILL think this two thousand year old argument can be solved in this forum. Is there anyway someone can start a thread in "Faith and Values" and continue it there? This topic, from the original OP, is important and deserves discussion. These religious tit-for-tats can go on forever - with nobody's mind being changed. Throw in the other faiths around the world and it's no wonder there are religious wars that have gone on for thousands of years and will continue as long as people believe THEY know the truth. It gets so old (understatement considering the age of religious superstition).

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[PUGalicious]

And Man is a fallen creature, fallen from the ideal of that Godly image through sin. As a result of that fall, we all cursed with what is described as a "sin nature." To do right in His eyes is not our instinct. That's why the notion of human "goodness" is fallacious.




Tim, the problem with how you've restated the position is that you've walked back into the "good behavior" trap. Man is evil, and has an inherently sinful, erring nature. "Good behavior" isn't the right measure, for the reasons I stated earlier. There's no magic formula that says accepting what you describe "my" religious beliefs will lead to "good" behavior. As a Christian, I acknowledge that sinful and evil nature, and wage a daily battle to live as God desires and as Christ demonstrated - that's the whole battle of "putting on the new man," as the New Testament describes it. It's a daily effort. I make no holier-than-thou assertions that I'm "better" or more of a "good" person than anyone else, because I have no business making such assertions. I can only hope to be more of the person Christ wants me to be today than I was the day before. And I promise I don't even achieve that goal.

If, at the other extreme, there is no recognition (or fundamental rejection) of that evil nature, an individual leaves themselves prone, defenseless, and increasingly hardened to the compromises that nature exposes to them. It leaves smoldering a fire of self-centeredness, wherein your own desires, lusts, whims, and angers are transformed into a personal sense of manifest destiny.

As I roll into a third paragraph, I'm going to stop, because I feel like I've hijacked the thread without meaning to, and I guess I have to blame it on my previous response. My apologies.

-soonerdave

Thank you for your response. That's been one of the more rational, respectful posts by you that I've read. I understand and respect your general position. Where I would diverge is in the semantics: As a Christian, I believe that we are indeed born with a sinful nature into a sinful world; however, I would stop short of saying we are inherently evil. We are created in the image of God, supernaturally designed for love, holiness and an inherent yearning for communing with Him; yet, because of sin in the world, we are born with a sinful nature that corrupts the original design. Through relationship with Him and His Son, we are driven and enabled to pursue the realization our original design — which is not inherently evil, but inherently good and holy.

Such horrendous evil behavior that leads to horrific and tragic circumstances like the story in the original post is the product of: an unchecked sinful nature; an unchecked sinful environment (that fosters such hatred and callous disregard for human life and suffering) within a sinful society (that has glorified violence and fostered a low regard for the suffering and lives of people different from ourselves) and a sinful world; and the willful, personal choices of very messed up individuals.

Such acts shock the conscience of the average person, who (in their inherent, God-created goodness) are horrified, sickened and outraged by such evil, sinful behavior. It's easy to attribute acts like this tragic story to inherent evil in mankind because it absolves us of any responsibility to examine what part our society plays into the life development of these individuals. What kind of environment did these people grow up in that would strip them of their basic humanity to commit such brutal torture and murder against complete strangers?

The reality is that, as a society, it happened on our watch; do we, as a society, have any culpability?

[PUGalicious]

I see some of you STILL think this two thousand year old argument can be solved in this forum. Is there anyway someone can start a thread in "Faith and Values" and continue it there? This topic, from the original OP, is important and deserves discussion. These religious tit-for-tats can go on forever - with nobody's mind being changed. Throw in the other faiths around the world and it's no wonder there are religious wars that have gone on for thousands of years and will continue as long as people believe THEY know the truth. It gets so old (understatement considering the age of religious superstition).

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So what's stopping you from discussing the original topic?

[jbrown84]

PUG, you got it right when you said it's coming down to semantics here. You say sinful nature, we say inherently evil. We essentially are saying the same thing, just in a different way. The point being that only through God can we attempt to escape sin.

[Karried]

The point being that only through God can we attempt to escape sin.

Something I'm thinking about .. there are a lot of non-Christians who don't rape, kill and torture people. Why?

Madmonk posted something after the Katrina debacle about the looting, criminal activity and 'tribes' .. this incident reminded me of it.

I wish I could find it.

[MadMonk]

Here you go.
Eject! Eject! Eject!: TRIBES

[jbrown84]

Something I'm thinking about .. there are a lot of non-Christians who don't rape, kill and torture people. Why?

I should rephrase that.

Only through God can we escape the eternal consequences of sin. I said earlier in the thread that many non-Christians are "good people".

[Karried]

Thanks Madmonk..... I think about that article all the time.. it makes sense to me and most of it resonates with how I feel about racism in general.

[writerranger]

So what's stopping you from discussing the original topic?

Pug, Maybe you missed it. (post 23)

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[PUGalicious]

Pug, Maybe you missed it. (post 23)

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I didn't miss it. And my question still applies.

[Karried]

Since we are dragging other threads into this one. I wonder if it would have made any difference if one or both of these two poor kids had a concealed weapon?

I don't want to hijack the thread either but just think if the criminals didn't have a gun in the first place..

Hard to carjack with a knife especially if the windows were up and the doors were locked.

Not to mention, after torturing these two poor kids, they were killed by a gun.. shot multiple times.

Anyway, I just thought it was ironic that the original crime started ( as it often does) with a gun.

I emailed Sharpton.. and asked


'Where's the outrage?' I doubt I'll get an answer.

I imagine if a bunch of caucasion guys acted 'outraged' (in Sharpton, Jackson fashion) , the race card would be utilized.

It's such a horrible crime....and it's such a sad double standard. We should be outraged.

Anyone have a website for these victims?

[writerranger]

I didn't miss it. And my question still applies.

I guess I don't understand. I addressed the original topic. There were more than three dozen posts that did not - and you have a problem with my two posts suggesting the religious issue won't be solved - and maybe those who think it can be take it to another thread? The purpose was to get comment on the posts that did address the original topic. How does your question still apply if your question was what was keeping me from posting about the thread topic after I gave you the link to where I was posting about the original topic? So, you still want to know why I'm not posting about the original topic? You've confused me. But, what's new? There seems to be a free-for-all on religion going on and I'm confused as to why its allowed to continue in threads about crime. In theory, you could bring religion into any thread and justify it one way or another. I, for one, am tired of all the religious arguments on this board. Maybe I'm in the minority. If so, fight on.

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