BOK Park Plaza

[Spartan]

Sure is a lot of doom and gloom being talked about........

It's kind of unfortunate if you can only accept rose-colored facts, or if people's faith OKC can be shaken by admitting some minor issues. I actually didn't realize these garages were defensible, but I always underestimate the ability of "well at least they're doing something" to cover anything.

We just don't want these issues repeated, which they will be otherwise. We know that there are powers that be that would salivate at the prospect of plaguing as many blocks with parking garages as possible.

It's somewhat amazing that OKC hasn't invented a sky bridge for cars so you can just conveniently go from garage to garage. That way you can just drive from the front door of Devon all the way over to the BOKPP.

[s00nr1]

It's somewhat amazing that OKC hasn't invented a sky bridge for cars so you can just conveniently go from garage to garage. That way you can just drive from the front door of the Devon Phallus all the way over to the BOKPP.

Shhh.....don't give anyone any ideas.

[Spartan]

lol for the record I edited something out of that paragraph that I instantly regretted posting...sorry Pete.

[ABCOKC]

For the record I don't have a problem with this tower and I appreciate that the west garage will include retail along Reno. We are, however, on page 99 now and have discussed ad nauseam the appearance of the building, its effect on the skyline, etc., and Pete had just posted some particularly unflattering pictures of the garages so I'd say this conversation was warranted, even if it seems to have revived the old "No development" vs. "Sub-par development" debate.

Anyhow, I'd like to point out also that the same people lambasting the garages in this thread are also some of the first to recognize the great work of developers like David Wanzer, or now Gary Brooks with the FNC. Heck, Spartan's been accused in the Wheeler District thread of being too supportive of Blair Humphreys.

And yeah, I realize that acting like everyone here is always negative is just Rover's attempt to discredit the negative things people are saying about the garages; I just feel compelled to point out that it's patently untrue, and that this board IMO tends to strike a nice balance between celebrating good development and knocking bad development.

[bombermwc]

I dont dislike the tower. I'm holding off judgement on the garage until we can see the finished product, not just a rendering. I mean when was the last time anything turned out like the rendering? We're going to get some great and some not so great facades on garages. I'd argue we have more bad than good, but i think that's also pretty standard in the world. When was the last time someone drove to Penn Square and thought, "man im not going to shop here because this garage looks like concrete"? Yeah its pretty much out of view, but i bet the next one they build wont be as obscure. I just think there are bigger things to get my panties in a twist about than what they glue on the outside of the concrete (cough cough Santa Fe).

[Pete]

25 floors now complete.

2 more office floors then 3 levels for the crown to go.

[baralheia]

For the record I don't have a problem with this tower and I appreciate that the west garage will include retail along Reno. We are, however, on page 99 now and have discussed ad nauseam the appearance of the building, its effect on the skyline, etc., and Pete had just posted some particularly unflattering pictures of the garages so I'd say this conversation was warranted, even if it seems to have revived the old "No development" vs. "Sub-par development" debate.

Anyhow, I'd like to point out also that the same people lambasting the garages in this thread are also some of the first to recognize the great work of developers like David Wanzer, or now Gary Brooks with the FNC. Heck, Spartan's been accused in the Wheeler District thread of being too supportive of Blair Humphreys.

And yeah, I realize that acting like everyone here is always negative is just Rover's attempt to discredit the negative things people are saying about the garages; I just feel compelled to point out that it's patently untrue, and that this board IMO tends to strike a nice balance between celebrating good development and knocking bad development.

To be honest, that's always been my takeaway from this forum as well. The posters here, by and large, are fairly balanced at where they level criticism and heap praise for projects. Yes, some projects do seem to get a large number of negative comments, but it's never without reason. In my eyes, that says more about the project's faults than a simple case of cantankerous, overly negative posters. People are passionate about this city and want to see it be the best that it can be - and I see nothing wrong with that.

[OKCRT]

I think someone needs to get a tape measure out and see how tall this building really is. Maybe it shrunk a little because it just doesn't seem like it's gonna be 450 feet when done.

[stratosphere]

I think your on to something. Flying cars would also help.

[Laramie]

The underground OKC Metro Concourse & the closing of main street is what KILLED the future potential for increased & expanded downtown vibrant street life.

[OKCRT]

The underground OKC Metro Concourse & the closing of main street is what KILLED the future potential for increased & expanded downtown vibrant street life.

I remember that area in the 70s and it was a very busy are. Main st. , Reno Couch , Kerr all the downtown area was a busy place with people every where on the streets. Things sure did change quickly as they pretty much killed downtown.

[Plutonic Panda]

What a horrible thing those tunnels did giving people the option to walk underground out of the cold, heat, rain, snow, etc. and giving them a more direct route. We need to close them off so we can force people to walk on the streets just so we can see them do so to make us feel better!

[soonerwilliam]

The buildings height has always been 433 ft. not 450 ft.

[catch22]

What a horrible thing those tunnels did giving people the option to walk underground out of the cold, heat, rain, snow, etc. and giving them a more direct route. We need to close them off so we can force people to walk on the streets just so we can see them do so to make us feel better!

It's great for the individual pedestrian, but bad for the overall economic sustainability of restaurants and downtown retail in general. You have to look at the bigger picture, and not that of the individual person. (Just like most sprawl, ironically -- it's good in most ways for the individual [more individual space] but unhealthy for the overall city). Like all things, there should be balance. Sprawl should occur in controlled manners just as the tunnels should be controlled a little bit. Moderate levels of restraint don't hurt anyone -- it's called compromise. Unfortunately this city has so far not done a good job of balancing sprawl with density; nor walkability with traffic efficiency downtown. The city is very inconsistent -- but hopefully is learning as it goes forward.

[gopokes88]

What a horrible thing those tunnels did giving people the option to walk underground out of the cold, heat, rain, snow, etc. and giving them a more direct route. We need to close them off so we can force people to walk on the streets just so we can see them do so to make us feel better!

+1

[gopokes88]

It's great for the individual pedestrian, but bad for the overall economic sustainability of restaurants and downtown retail in general. You have to look at the bigger picture, and not that of the individual person. (Just like most sprawl, ironically -- it's good in most ways for the individual [more individual space] but unhealthy for the overall city). Like all things, there should be balance. Sprawl should occur in controlled manners just as the tunnels should be controlled a little bit. Moderate levels of restraint don't hurt anyone -- it's called compromise. Unfortunately this city has so far not done a good job of balancing sprawl with density; nor walkability with traffic efficiency downtown. The city is very inconsistent -- but hopefully is learning as it goes forward.

You live in the most individualistic society in the history of the world, fighting a losing battle.

[Rover]

It's great for the individual pedestrian, but bad for the overall economic sustainability of restaurants and downtown retail in general. You have to look at the bigger picture, and not that of the individual person. (Just like most sprawl, ironically -- it's good in most ways for the individual [more individual space] but unhealthy for the overall city). Like all things, there should be balance. Sprawl should occur in controlled manners just as the tunnels should be controlled a little bit. Moderate levels of restraint don't hurt anyone -- it's called compromise. Unfortunately this city has so far not done a good job of balancing sprawl with density; nor walkability with traffic efficiency downtown. The city is very inconsistent -- but hopefully is learning as it goes forward.

More people living downtown helps way more than "forcing" people to walk outside. Creating good street interaction helps way more. Getting retail at street level that actually entices people with good shopping and dining experiences helps way more. More evening and nighttime events helps way more. More employees downtown helps way more. The streetcar helps way more. Just forcing people to go where they don't want to go doesn't help.

[Pete]

^

It's a bit chicken-and-egg.

Hard to get street-side retail when there are no people on the street.

[catch22]

More people living downtown helps way more than "forcing" people to walk outside. Creating good street interaction helps way more. Getting retail at street level that actually entices people with good shopping and dining experiences helps way more. More evening and nighttime events helps way more. More employees downtown helps way more. The streetcar helps way more. Just forcing people to go where they don't want to go doesn't help.

We aren't talking about forcing anyone to do anything. I just want the network of the underground to not be expanded further. There's no point spending a ton of money to fix the mistake, leave it alone. But we shouldn't be spending money to make the mistake bigger. It's proven to be a drain on street level retail just as much as a highway can be a drain on a nearby neighborhood. Individually under their own merit they are useful, but there are appropriate uses of each and downtown is not an appropriate use of more Sky bridges bypassing the street.

[Pete]

BTW, when more money was to be invested in the Underground, several local architects and leaders came out strongly against it.

You may recall there was a push to place more street-level entrances and promote signage to get people down there and for the most part that didn't happen due to the opposition centered around the detraction from street life.

And the City paid Jeff Speck to come and help us with walkability pre Project 180 and he is dead-set against undergrounds and skywalks.

The irony is that P180 funds paid for the Devon skywalks which in turn connect the entire complex -- with BOK Plaza to come -- into the Underground system.

[OKCisOK4me]

When ther are enough people downtown, not everyone will use the Underground, especially if the Morlocks are down there :-)

[soonerguru]

Reading this thread makes me question if OKC will ever be a great city. The momentum we got from the boom, the arrival of the Thunder, and minimally competent state government leadership is over.

[TU 'cane]

Reading this thread makes me question if OKC will ever be a great city. The momentum we got from the boom, the arrival of the Thunder, and minimally competent state government leadership is over.

Come on now, I don't think there's a reason to be like that at this time. OKC is building itself up from the inside-out slowly, but thoroughly. The biggest problem is that the Internet and its forums tend to be overly negative as many of us have discussed. And I think most of us are guilty from time to time and we use it as a vent.

I'll say this, it's up to us, the people, to pressure civic and state leaders. If you don't like something, let us know on here as well as your friends and family and open a discussion and have us contact these leaders with you.
I gladly contacted the parties down in OKC when they were tearing down the Preftakes Block and asked them to reconsider, etc. While they moved forward with it anyway, they can get a taste of the people's will from time to time. And, in some cases, they can end up chucking out plans if it proves to be overly unpopular with the public.

OKC just started construction on its street car this week.
OKC has another massively budding entertainment area in a completely different part of town (which honestly helps with diversity) in Chisholm Creek.
OKC has a 435' tower getting closer to topping out (and maybe some time in the next few years we get to see the Stage Center site take hold of a large multi-use tower)
OKC is seeing Bricktown and the east side districts flesh out (slowly) with more housing options.
OKC is about to start on another massive neighborhood in The Wheeler.
OKC is starting work on their grand central park (it'll be great for OKC, even though I know some people wanted something with more scale like The Gathering Place is going to have).
OKC is on pace to break 700,000 people within its proper boundaries over the next 6-8 years most likely.

And while that last one may not be an "accomplishment" per se, OKC is more or less a "big league" city. And more people generally means a diversity of jobs that's keeping them here (which is really what both Tulsa and OKC need to keep striving for).
I know I've missed some things, but that's just off the top of my head.
The city has been trending in the right direction and is still going that way.

[kevin lee]

We are far from loosing momentum. There are plenty of projects moving forward right now. They're just not as sexy as the Devon tower. It's the infill projects and adding public services that will put this city over the top. There's not as many cute things going on right now but there's plenty of foundation and behind the scenes projects keeping us with very strong momentum still.

[Pete]

There is still tons of things in the pipeline as well.

We are just getting going, not winding down.