OKC Roads and Highways

[Pete]

It's not about blame, it's about understanding what got us into this unsustainable mess and how to be smarter in the future.

OKC is just now starting a dialog about his very issue while other American cities -- like Portland -- are way ahead.

It's just about smart growth.


And to answer you second question, if we had done a better job of this in the past had had not pandered to our huge industries, we would likely look a lot more like Australia and Canada, countries noted for beautiful, clean and livable cities.

[bradh]

It's not about blame, it's about understanding what got us into this unsustainable mess and how to be smarter in the future.

OKC is just now starting a dialog about his very issue while other American cities -- like Portland -- are way ahead.

It's just about smart growth.


And to answer you second question, if we had done a better job of this in the past had had not pandered to our huge industries, we would likely look a lot more like Australia and Canada, countries noted for beautiful, clean and livable cities.

You list Portland as a great example, but one of our own just moved there, someone who I think is respected here, and he's been pretty outspoken about how he hated it and is glad he's gone.

If we had done a better job but population growth stayed the same, I don't think you're cramming 319 million people in those same spaces and keeping it beautiful and clean.

I'm not arguing against smart growth or anything, I'd love to see more infill and a growth boundary. Just having a discussion.

[Bill Robertson]

I've spent an unusually large amount of time in KC, Wichita and DFW this summer. I really don't see the complaints about OKC streets comparatively. Theirs aren't better.

[Pete]

Anecdotal opinions of one person aside, Portland is universally recognized as a textbook case in smart planning and became an incredibly popular city after its smart growth initiatives were instituted.

It's not perfect and not for everyone, of course.

[Pete]

I've spent an unusually large amount of time in KC, Wichita and DFW this summer. I really don't see the complaints about OKC streets comparatively. Theirs aren't better.

The are bad everywhere in the U.S. and so are our tunnels and bridges and general infrastructure that is far less obvious.

[bradh]

not for everyone, of course.

Of course it's not, only few can afford it.

[Urbanized]

No doubt. So who do we blame? The auto makers and oil companies, or the pioneers of the frontier in the 1800's who said "go west!"? ...

Like Pete said, there really isn't "blame." Like you point out, the American idea of Manifest Destiny contributes; it's cultural in that regard.

But, even though there isn't "blame," there really WERE conscious decisions that created the auto-centric culture and a huge shift here that didn't occur elsewhere, mostly due to timing. There are lots of elements, but here goes:

1. Post-WWII the manufacturing economy - which had been thriving during wartime - needed a kick in the pants to maintain itself
2. GIs came back from war and found out that in many cases their manufacturing jobs had been taken over by women, who realized that they enjoyed working outside of the house and elected to stay in the workforce
3. The Second Great Migration of southern African Americans also created pressure for more manufacturing jobs in the north and in the west
4. The U.S. government and industrial leaders understood that new housing starts and roadbuilding would create jobs for returning GIs, while factories that had ramped up to build tanks and airplanes during war now needed to build cars...LOTS of cars to stay operational and thriving, and to provide jobs to GIs, women and relocating African Americans
5. U.S. government subsidized home loans for veterans; but said mortgages could only be used for single family dwellings...thus creating more need for automobiles, and roads, and tires, and related jobs
6. Corporations with ownership including GM, Firestone Tires, Standard Oil and Mack Truck bought urban streetcar lines and dismantled them in favor of city buses, then altered or discontinued bus service to wean people off of transit and into automobiles
7. Aforementioned Second Great Migration caused many white city dwellers to opt for suburbs (white flight), which was further exacerbated by civil rights movement and forced integration and bussing soon afterward
8. The new "American Dream" ideal of white picket fence and unlimited ability to go where you want, when you want in your personal automobile became very appealing to the middle class, who had never before in the history of man been able to afford the proverbial "house in the country" that the wealthy had enjoyed for centuries

Anyway, lots of other factors, but really we created - via timing, some well-intentioned decisions, and even some not-so-well-intentioned decisions - a type of living that had never before existed in human history. All over the course of a few decades. And we liked it, at least at first. The problem is that in many ways the other shoe has dropped. It has fed into donut development, rolling ghettos, bad foreign policy driven by a need to preserve our energy options, institutionalized poverty and bad access to gainful employment for some, food deserts in poor areas, public health/obesity issues, isolation and mental health issues, and you can go on and on...

I'm NOT saying suburban living is bad. NOT saying cars are bad. I've been on record here saying it can/should be a valid choice, especially when someone can still work/shop close to where they live. I'm just saying that for a variety of reasons we let the scale tip so far in one direction that in many cities we basically eliminated the one thing that human history has done successfully for thousands of years, that is, live in a walkable city environment where we aren't slaves to a single transportation source (other than our own feet).

The suburbs are going to exist. It is a perfectly fine - even great - choice for many. We just need to change the way we approach them. They need to be GREAT suburbs. Retro-fit with complete shopping/dining/employment options nearby. In some cases more walkable options created. And we need to stop building isolated density at the fringe of our cities that keep pushing the edge out and out and out...

[Plutonic Panda]

This

If our nation was like a European country, which is about the size of one U.S. state and the population of California, then this wouldn't be an issue. But when we travel within our country, we have a lot of area to cover since we're one of the larger nations and we have over 300 million people and a lot of those people are driving age.

I have talked with tons of international students and they all tell me Europe has absolutely horrible roads in a lot of places.

[Bill Robertson]

I have talked with tons of international students and they all tell me Europe has absolutely horrible roads in a lot of places.

I really didn't think about this until PluPan posted this but I went to Italy, France and Germany a few years ago to see where dad was in WW2 and that's true. The countryside roads are nice but city streets aren't any better than ours.

[tfvc.org]

I have talked with tons of international students and they all tell me Europe has absolutely horrible roads in a lot of places.

I spent a month in Spain, and the big problem I saw with their roads were they were very narrow. Half of the passenger trucks wouldn't be able to drive or park on them since 90% of it is parallel parking and those spots are very tight to get into and out of. My friend broke her foot a couple of weeks before I arrived there last year, so I was forced to drive there and had to take a crash course in parallel parking. She has a small car and it was hairy parking in some places I thought I could never get into. The roads there are also mainly out of the medieval era, and at least in the old part of towns are mostly brick. Also I don't think I saw a single semi on the roads, even on the highways. They were all box trucks which were more compact than the ones you see in the US. I was mostly in a tourist area, and didn't really see any bad roads except for a shortcut we used to take through some farm land to save a couple KM. That you had to be really careful on.

[bradh]

Thanks C....I know that took a lot of time. Good discussion which is all I was gunning for.

[traxx]

Both Australia and Canada have significantly fewer people than the US. Canada isn't quite as populated as California and Australia is a little less populated than Texas. Not to mention that much of the central part of Australia is not easily inhabitable. So those are big differences there.

[catch22]

Anecdotal opinions of one person aside, Portland is universally recognized as a textbook case in smart planning and became an incredibly popular city after its smart growth initiatives were instituted.

It's not perfect and not for everyone, of course.

It absolutely is a textbook example. It looks great on paper and has all of the right things. it really does have everything a great city should have. And as far as a city goes, it is great. The problem is the city has completely outgrown its infrastructure. Which is not smart growth, but rather "no growth". They figured by instituting policies which restricted development, the population would not outgrow he infrastructure. They were wrong. People kept coming, housing costs skyrocketed, and traffic became unbearable. Highways are gridlocked by 2pm, side streets are jammed by 4pm. People who lived in the inner city have been out priced to the suburbs, and deal with traffic more. The people who can afford to live and work in the downtown/Pearl have a pretty good standard of living, rivaling any major city around the world.

Your average person will live in the suburbs, commuting 3-4 hours each day, and not afford any of the fun amenities that make that city great.

If I made 4 times the income where I could afford to live in a trendy area, take mass transit to work, and enjoy the good aspects I wouldn't have a bad opinion of it. The problem is most people in Portland cannot afford that lifestyle and as such it really offers an oppressive lifestyle.

Edit: I would add that it is an absolute great city to visit. You aren't dealing with the traffic as a stressor, the costs of living, or any of the other problems which affects residents but not visitors. I would go back to visit, but if offered to live there I would turn it down 100 times unless I got a 400% raise to do so.

[Scott5114]

One thing that irks me about Oklahoma highways is our road signs. They're total garbage. There's a large number of signs that have margins that are too small, are off center, lines spaced unevenly, and so on. There are few signs here and there that use the wrong fonts. Hell, if you go on I-235 northbound, the exit sign for Sheridan (probably the most important street in OKC in terms of putting off a good impression) can't even manage to have all of the letters be the same size.

Doing it right doesn't cost us anything more and we can't blame it on the climate or lack of revenue. It's a small detail, but it makes Oklahoma look really sloppy.

[Bunty]

Rural wise, it's at least great that much of I-35 from OKC to the Kansas line is in better shape than it used to be. It quite recently got repaved between the Stillwater exit to just south of the Guthrie exit. Highway 33 from Guthrie east to Perkins is in pretty good shape. One sure can't use those two fine stretches to point out how bad Oklahoma highways are.

[OKCisOK4me]

Rural wise, it's at least great that much of I-35 from OKC to the Kansas line is in better shape than it used to be. It quite recently got repaved between the Stillwater exit to just south of the Guthrie exit. Highway 33 from Guthrie east to Perkins is in pretty good shape. One sure can't use those two fine stretches to point out how bad Oklahoma highways are.

What I don't get is the land (or shall I say, right of way) has been cleared for years for that section of HWY 33 between the Cimmaron River just NE of Langston toward Perkins and it still has yet to be developed into the same kinda 4 lane open access highway like it it from Guthrie to Langston. Don't get me wrong, it's a mighty fine road and much better than it used to be, so much so that I don't travel to Stillwater using 51 anymore cause 33 is that much faster IMO.

[Trisha]

drove i-40 east to henryetta from MWC Mon (and back) & it was actually a pleasant drive (if long lol) ... road was in good shape, only had a few rough patches but I set the cruise control on 70 & enjoyed it lol, whereas I HATE the stretch of i-35 Southbound from Danforth rd in edmond, for a few miles it's very rough! & the junction (44 e/35 sb )
is is need of repair as well!

[rte66man]

What I don't get is the land (or shall I say, right of way) has been cleared for years for that section of HWY 33 between the Cimmaron River just NE of Langston toward Perkins and it still has yet to be developed into the same kinda 4 lane open access highway like it it from Guthrie to Langston. Don't get me wrong, it's a mighty fine road and much better than it used to be, so much so that I don't travel to Stillwater using 51 anymore cause 33 is that much faster IMO.

It's in the long range plans, but traffic counts don't justify bumping it higher in the priority list.

[OKCisOK4me]

It's in the long range plans, but traffic counts don't justify bumping it higher in the priority list.

I do concur with that...it makes for the nice alternative drive to Stilly!

[OUman]

Just my opinion but anyway, I drive everyday from my place in Norman to 50 Penn Place for work, and the road/highway conditions are the least of my worries. It's more the commuters that cause the headaches for me rather than the road conditions, but then there is a another thread for that. Many of Norman's roads (the main arteries) are either relatively new or have been re-paved (I usually take 12th, then Robinson, Rock Creek or Tecumseh), I-35 is in pretty good shape, the new I-40 crosstown, well it opened not too long ago and then I-44 which I take everyday from the I-40/I-44 junction is not too bad either. Now some of the inner city streets in Oklahoma City are definitely in bad shape, and I'm talking about Penn, but especially more so the streets just west of downtown.

[turnpup]

OUman, just curious why you take I-40 to 44 rather than stay on Broadway Extension and hit I-44 from there? My husband takes that route on his way to work and hasn't had any trouble with traffic other than the brief slowdown that always occurs where Broadway Extension curves near NW 50th. Seems like you might save yourself some time and miles by utilizing Broadway Ext.

[OKCisOK4me]

OUman, just curious why you take I-40 to 44 rather than stay on Broadway Extension and hit I-44 from there? My husband takes that route on his way to work and hasn't had any trouble with traffic other than the brief slowdown that always occurs where Broadway Extension curves near NW 50th. Seems like you might save yourself some time and miles by utilizing Broadway Ext.

Probably just preparing for when 235 has extensive lane closures for the upcoming work. Just my guess ��

[OUman]

OUman, just curious why you take I-40 to 44 rather than stay on Broadway Extension and hit I-44 from there? My husband takes that route on his way to work and hasn't had any trouble with traffic other than the brief slowdown that always occurs where Broadway Extension curves near NW 50th. Seems like you might save yourself some time and miles by utilizing Broadway Ext.

I've thought about it but pretty much everyday it's clogged with traffic beginning right where the split is to 235. I-35 to I-44 on the Crosstown takes me only 5 minutes (this during the morning rush), then it's another 4 or so minutes on I-44 north of 40 to Penn. The only place I have to stop (if at all) is at Penn when I get off I-44. Maybe it's just my timing and I'm seeing only the back-up near downtown and the rest of it is flowing fast. I'll definitely give it a try, appreciate the suggestion .

[turnpup]

I've thought about it but pretty much everyday it's clogged with traffic beginning right where the split is to 235. I-35 to I-44 on the Crosstown takes me only 5 minutes (this during the morning rush), then it's another 4 or so minutes on I-44 north of 40 to Penn. The only place I have to stop (if at all) is at Penn when I get off I-44. Maybe it's just my timing and I'm seeing only the back-up near downtown and the rest of it is flowing fast. I'll definitely give it a try, appreciate the suggestion .

Ah, I see. The difference for us is that we get onto 235 at 23rd because of where we live, so we don't have to deal with what you do at the split. And yes, the route you take when you get on 44 is a good, short, one. When we lived in Linwood, I used that exact route any time I needed to go up to the 50 Penn area.

[Bellaboo]

I've thought about it but pretty much everyday it's clogged with traffic beginning right where the split is to 235. I-35 to I-44 on the Crosstown takes me only 5 minutes (this during the morning rush), then it's another 4 or so minutes on I-44 north of 40 to Penn. The only place I have to stop (if at all) is at Penn when I get off I-44. Maybe it's just my timing and I'm seeing only the back-up near downtown and the rest of it is flowing fast. I'll definitely give it a try, appreciate the suggestion .

Once you get past the Health Science Center exit on Lincoln, then it speeds up. Just watch out for the motorcycle cops.