Development that will make Dallas and KC Jealous?

[David]

Another dropped hint: https://twitter.com/benfelder_okc/st...38874460987392

Calling all OKC development geeks, Sun. @TheOklahoman is for you. @stevelackmeyer on soccer stadium, interstate deck

Interstate deck?

[Eric]

What about the this would make Dallas or Kansas City jealous?

KC's soccer stadium is right next to Great Wolf Lodge, Cabella's, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Legends Outlets, Community America Ballpark, Apartments, and Kansas Speedway to book.

Dallas has Toyota Stadium, steps from Frisco Square.

And both are already MLS franchises.

Did I miss something in the article?

[warreng88]

I remember in one of Steve's chats a long time ago, he said the "Make KC and Dallas Jealous" deal was dead and it sounds like this is a new deal for this land.

[bradh]

What about the this would make Dallas or Kansas City jealous?

KC's soccer stadium is right next to Great Wolf Lodge, Cabella's, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Legends Outlets, Community America Ballpark, Apartments, and Kansas Speedway to book.

Dallas has Toyota Stadium, steps from Frisco Square.

And both are already MLS franchises.

Did I miss something in the article?

I'll bite, I bet both cities would trade for stadiums centrally located. Especially DFW, where attendance is pretty bad.

[adaniel]

^
I agree. The stadium in Frisco is LAME and if you do not live in Collin County it is a huge pain to get to. Also, even by bland faux-town-center standards, Frisco Square is a half-built disappointment; I guarantee you nobody outside of Frisco USA is itching to go there. You are 100% correct in that FC Dallas's attendance has always been an issue since they relocated out there. I know they had to bust out the tarps last season to cover about a fifth of the seats, if that tells you anything.

If anything, both Dallas and KC are missing out on tax revenue that is going to their suburbs. I think OKC should look to to Houston's BBVA Stadium as a guide, which is located on the flank of DT Houston AND is on a train line. Not surprisingly the Dynamo draw much larger crowds than FC Dallas.

[dankrutka]

I live in DFW and would love to go to an MLS game, but I can't convince anyone to drive out to Frisco to go to a game. It's not a good location. My understanding is that Kansas City's is in a sprawled out area that pretty much requires driving to get anywhere. Those would be far inferior situations to this stadium was built among mixed use developments in OKC's core. In short, a lot of people in Deep Deuce could walk over to Skinny's, meet some soccer friends, and then walk over to the stadium. That's not happening in Dallas or KC, right?

[OKCRT]

I live in DFW and would love to go to an MLS game, but I can't convince anyone to drive out to Frisco to go to a game. It's not a good location. My understanding is that Kansas City's is in a sprawled out area that pretty much requires driving to get anywhere. Those would be far inferior situations to this stadium was built among mixed use developments in OKC's core. In short, a lot of people in Deep Deuce could walk over to Skinny's, meet some soccer friends, and then walk over to the stadium. That's not happening in Dallas or KC, right?

Downtown area much much better for a stadium than out in the burbs. This should make them jealous if it's a top notch stadium with a MLS team playing in it.

[blangtang]

whats the price tag on a competent MLS stadium?

[Laramie]

whats the price tag on a competent MLS stadium?

Average at best, basic cost post 2020; you're probably looking at a $150 million to $200 million range for a competent MLS venue seating 18,500 - 22,000.

Low : 1999 - Mapfre Stadium 19,968, Columbus Crew Columbus, OH $28,500,000
Medium: 2008 - Rio Tinto Stadium 20,213, Real Salt Lake Sandy, UT $110,000,000
High: 2011 - Children's Mercy Park 21,000, Sporting Kansas City - Kansas City, KS $200,000,000


Comparing D.C. United's Proposed Stadium to Other MLS Soccer-Specific Stadiums:

Reports say that D.C. United is willing to spend $157M on a new stadium in the District.

http://www.blackandredunited.com/sta...-buzzard-point

[Plutonic Panda]

I'll bite, I bet both cities would trade for stadiums centrally located. Especially DFW, where attendance is pretty bad.

Perhaps but this won't make them jealous. I mean if there were twin 80 story towers, than yeah, I'd be jealous if I were in Dallas over that. But that is just me.

[dankrutka]

Perhaps but this won't make them jealous. I mean if there were twin 80 story towers, than yeah, I'd be jealous if I were in Dallas over that. But that is just me.

Seriously though, the thing that should make Dallas & KC jealous is the whitewater center.

[Eric]

Seriously though, the thing that should make Dallas & KC jealous is the whitewater center.

Agreed. Soccer just ain't it. You all are trying to say that a centrally located stadium would bring more fans to a sport that they obviously don't care enough about to go to when it is available to them. Let's be serious, people that attend these games don't have mobility issues. I would hardly think that would make them jealous.

[Urbanized]

People continue to take this "jealous" thing way too seriously and literally, I think. There are plenty of people in other (smaller) markets who aren't in any way jealous that we have an NBA team, because they don't give a hoot about basketball. That doesn't mean that you can't say that NBA doesn't make cities like Wichita, Tulsa, or even Seattle or Vegas jealous; it clearly does.

The fact of the matter is that having a stadium and a mixed use development all around it in the city center is something that WOULD make plenty of people - and certainly many city officials in cities like KC and Dallas - envious. It would be a level of vibrancy, activity, entertainment option and tax collection that they don't currently enjoy because of the way their own situation is located/configured.

Being "jealous" is not to say that anyone there is going to see it and say "man, I wish I lived in OKC instead of here because of that ____________." It just means that they see something we have and they say "man, I wish we had that back home," or "I sure do wish ours was more like THAT." I see things all of the time in other cities that make me jealous. A perfect example is Wichita, where I grew up and where I have been spending some time lately taking care of some issues for my mom.

I'm jealous that Wichita has not one but two Frank Lloyd Wright buildings. I'm jealous they have a Miro mural on the front of the art museum on the WSU campus. I'm jealous of their downtown parks. I'm jealous of the way the rivers snake through town and the way they are developed. I'm jealous of a few of the shopping options. But that doesn't mean for a second that I would trade living here for living there. People need to think of it more along these lines. And yes, a downtown soccer stadium with connected mixed urban development - blocks from Bricktown and the Riversport area - WOULD INDEED make those cities jealous.

[Laramie]

I'll bite, I bet both cities would trade for stadiums centrally located. Especially DFW, where attendance is pretty bad.

Help me out here dankrutka; you're in that vacinity . . .

What in the world happen to FC Dallas in Frisco? FC Dallas in Frisco is last in the league averaging 13,884.

2016 MLS Attendance: http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2016-mls-attendance/

Could the new miniWorld Jerry Jones facility (Dallas Cowboys) have an impact on what appeared to be an over-saturated market:

The Star in Frisco, Texas is the official name for the development, home to the Cowboys new world headquarters, training complex, a 12,000-seat multi-use event center, and a wide range of mixed-use elements on the property.

[d-usa]

Help me out here dankrutka; you're in that vacinity . . .

What in the world happen to FC Dallas in Frisco? FC Dallas in Frisco is last in the league averaging 13,884.

2016 MLS Attendance: http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2016-mls-attendance/

I'm an FC Dallas fan, and the complaints I hear frequently are (the first three are part of the reason for the "jealous" thing IMO):

- Location (and this is the reason why I originally guessed that this was about a soccer stadium): Frisco is pretty far on the outskirts of the metropolitan area there. There aren't really any big population centers to the north of Frisco, with Denton being the closest bigger city to the west and McKinney being the closest bigger city to the east. But all population centers are a fair distance away: Denton is 36 minutes away, McKinney 24, Plano 24, Grapevine 35, Downtown Dallas 40, Arlington 50, Fort Worth 55, and you are looking at 60+ minutes if you are even remotely on the south side of the DFW area. It's a long trip to make in DFW traffic.

- Access: Unless you want to drive on access roads or through downtown Frisco, you are stuck using the Dallas Tollways. That alone puts a lot of people off from traveling there for games.

- Entertainment/lodging: There isn't all that much to do there unless you are going to a game. There is one single hotel within walking distance of the stadium: The Comfort Suites Frisco. All others require a drive on the tollway or through Frisco. There is a movie theater near the Stadium and a handful of restaurants & bars. It's okay enough for me: I stay at the hotel there, walk to the tailgate before the game, enjoy the game, hit the local bar, and walk back to the hotel. But there really isn't much of anything to do for my family other than going to the game, and if you are not able to walk and have to drive, it cuts down on the alcohol portion of the activities.

Non-location related issues are:

- The sheer number of games: MLS already plays a lot of games, and this year FCD made it through the US Open Cup, and is also playing in the Champions League. There is only a limited number of fans that will go to games, and if there are this many games they can pick and choose which games they want to see. I think that just ends up with less people per game simply because they have so many options.

- Construction at the stadium this year: The south section is blocked off this year I believe, but truthfully attendance hasn't been all that great before that.

- They started to charge for parking this year, which together with increasing ticket prices and what some people perceive as a less than stellar game-day experience probably also contributes to the lower attendance.

Which brings me back to why I originally guessed that a downtown soccer stadium was the project:

- Location: Yes, the stadium itself wouldn't make Dallas jealous. Even less so if we are starting out with a minor league stadium. And if FC Dallas had a stadium in downtown Dallas they wouldn't even have the slightest bit of envy in their eyes. Houston has a stadium downtown, and this project was mentioned as something Houston has and Dallas doesn't. But a stadium in downtown OKC will be much better than a stadium in Frisco. It would be 20 minutes from Edmond, 20 minutes from Yukon, 15 minutes from Moore, 30 minutes from Norman, 30 minutes from Choctaw, 35 minutes from Guthrie, 40 minutes from Shawnee, and 60 minutes from Kingfisher, Stillwater, Weatherford, or Anadarko, This is worth repeating IMO: People from Stillwater will be able to get to the stadium to watch Oklahoma City Soccer faster than people in Dallas will be able to get to the stadium to watch FC Dallas. That alone makes this a "jealous" type of project.

- Access: It's right at the crossroads of our major feeder Interstate highways: I-40 and I-35 with neither of them being toll roads. And by the time this thing will be build there will be a street car, and with any luck maybe even a commuter train station just up the road.

Entertainment: Bricktown blows Frisco out of the water. How many hotels will be within walking distance from the stadium? How many restaurants and bars? How many options to take you back to your hotel when you are drunk after the game? How many options for your family before/during/after the game? You could get to downtown Friday evening, go to a Saturday game, head back home Sunday, and have enough entertainment options for your family to have a busy three days without ever needing to get back into your car.

Dallas wouldn't be jealous about a soccer stadium. They probably wouldn't give us a second thought even if we joined MLS. They got their own team, their own stadium, and all that in addition to their NBA, NHL, MLB, and NFL teams. It's all about location though, and our minor league soccer team would be playing in a much more desirable area than their MLS team. If I wasn't a FC Dallas fan I wouldn't be driving down there. And if I'm just a person looking for something to do with the family on a weekend and I had the choice between a minor league team in Bricktown and FC Dallas in Frisco, I would give OKC a good hard look.

[Plutonic Panda]

Seriously though, the thing that should make Dallas & KC jealous is the whitewater center.

The whole River Area is general is incredibly unique it seems. A couple of cool other venues they should go for is an iFly, Velodrome and a TopGolf.

[Teo9969]

The Velodrome would be incredible.

iFly and Top Golf...meh...maybe. Especially if Top Golf would want to situate their building facing East, then the boathouse district would not be the right choice...Perhaps just east/northeast of Wheeler would be better.

[Eric]

Looking at the attendance list for MLS, it doesn't appear that there is a correlation between urbaness of the stadium and attendance. Houston was pretty far down the list. There are hardly any truly downtown stadiums in MLS. Houston being the only new soccer specific stadium that is downtown. The other two downtown stadiums are a 33 year old world's fair relic and a 90 year old stadium on the end of downtown Portland.

I think it is more that Texan's in general don't give a hoot about soccer.

[Eric]

The whole River Area is general is incredibly unique it seems. A couple of cool other venues they should go for is an iFly, Velodrome and a TopGolf.

Yes. the river area is incredibly unique. The fact that world class athletes make there way to OKC to train here is testament to that fact.

[dankrutka]

I'm an FC Dallas fan, and the complaints I hear frequently are (the first three are part of the reason for the "jealous" thing IMO):

- Location (and this is the reason why I originally guessed that this was about a soccer stadium): Frisco is pretty far on the outskirts of the metropolitan area there. There aren't really any big population centers to the north of Frisco, with Denton being the closest bigger city to the west and McKinney being the closest bigger city to the east. But all population centers are a fair distance away: Denton is 36 minutes away...

Great post. I live in Denton and 36 minutes to Frisco is without any traffic at all. It can be a lot more and I absolutely hate paying for the tollways. It's just too big of a hassle for just a game (again, the game experience in the surrounding area is lacking). You hit about everything, and way more, than I would have said...

[Plutonic Panda]

The Velodrome would be incredible.

iFly and Top Golf...meh...maybe. Especially if Top Golf would want to situate their building facing East, then the boathouse district would not be the right choice...Perhaps just east/northeast of Wheeler would be better.

Yeah I think Top Golf might be a good thing to place where the substation is being relocated to or perhaps near the AICC.

[Roger S]

Yeah I think Top Golf might be a good thing to place where the substation is being relocated to or perhaps near the AICC.

I don't see a second Top Golf being built in OKC. They don't currently have two locations in any one city. I suppose you could argue they will soon have 4 in the D/FW area but there's quite a bit of distance between them. Not to mention a lot more people down there to use them.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't see a second Top Golf being built in OKC. They don't currently have two locations in any one city. I suppose you could argue they will soon have 4 in the D/FW area but there's quite a bit of distance between them. Not to mention a lot more people down there to use them.

Yeah. Perhaps a local operator similar to the one who was going to build in Norman could do it. I doubt it will happen, but would be nice.

[traxx]

People continue to take this "jealous" thing way too seriously and literally,

Generally, I'd agree. But Steve brought this up again which, I think, was clearly a mistake. He almost never lived down the original 'Make KC/Dallas jealous' and now he brings it up again once it had nearly died.

[Laramie]

Generally, I'd agree. But Steve brought this up again which, I think, was clearly a mistake. He almost never lived down the original 'Make KC/Dallas jealous' and now he brings it up again once it had nearly died.

The dream lives on . . .