LifeChurchTV

[southokie]

And Southokie, although we can agree to disagree, I have to disagree with you on several issues. I've attended for almost 9 years, well over before it was a big church, and never once have I heard anyone say the goal of the church was to put a church in every major US City. The Mission of the church has always been: TO LEAD PEOPLE TO BECOME FULLY DEVOTED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, TO BRING IN, BUILD UP, TRAIN, AND SEND OUT. I have personally experienced this mission in countless lives including my own. I'm sorry to hear you experienced it differently. The church isn't for everybody, just like any other church. Obviously, as we've said before the real issue that keeps being debated is Fundamentalism vs. Evangelism.

This is so typical...

Your argument is completely classic straw man.

THis is NOT about evangelism vs fundamentalism... you WISH it was. You are trying to MAKE it about that. LIFECHRUCH.TV has brainwashed you into thinking that it IS about fundamentalism vs evangelism...

That's the problem with you LIFECHURCH'ers. You are so arrogant and self-enthralled that you truly believe that every other church does it wrong, and you are the only ones doing it right. You paint anyone who disagrees with you to be on the same side as "satan" because he hates lifechurch too.

You pat yourselves on the back and say "see, look what we've done!!! WE'VE brought people to the Lord. WE'VE done it the right way. WE'VE been the ones who are evangelists. WE are the ones who have figured it out. just count all the people, count all the campuses, check out all the web traffic."

It sickens the Lord.

That's not what its about. Its not about numbers. Its not about how many "church" campuses you have. Its certainly, and most importantly not about YOU. That is the one thing this IS about. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT's supposed to be about Jesus, but He is significantly absent from everything you do. Yes, Craig may talk the talk from time to time on the pulpit, but for the most part, what's the old saying, ACTIONS speak louder than words??!!

You put Lifchurch's logo on everything you sell at your church, and don't kid yourself honey, you don't corner the market on the whole "satan hates so and so church". It really doesn't make you Ghandi to not charge for that.

But in conclusion, Don't kid yourself by easily calling everyone here a "fundamentalists" because we follow the teachings in the Scripture, the words of the Apostles themselves, because we believe that the early Church had it the right way, and your Americanized glamorized broadwayized corporate sloganized wal-mart way of doing things has missed the point entirely.

[Dark Jedi]

Just to throw a little gas on the fire:

I look at churches an their charitable works. A church that spent 40 million on new megachurches last year but only 10,000 on charitable works has it's heart in very much the wrong place.

[Easy180]

On that subject....Looks like a bill designed to make churches more transparent got trounced in Massachusetts last year under the concern of separation of church and state
Umm...Yeah...Ok

Reason for anger

By Adrian Walker, Globe Columnist | January 26, 2006

Disappointment mixed with fury in Senator Marian Walsh's voice yesterday after it became obvious that her bill calling for financial disclosure by churches was well on its way to being crushed.

It was artful, really, the way the opponents of the bill had orchestrated their efforts and convinced nearly everyone that the vote remained close, the better to keep their supporters united and energized.

''This is our process; I accept that," said Walsh, a West Roxbury Democrat. ''But we have a lot of public charities that are accountable to no one."

Not long ago, the clergy sexual abuse scandal was widely believed to have severely diluted the influence wielded on Beacon Hill by the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston.

Yesterday, that theory was forcefully consigned to the recycle bin.

Walsh said she believed her bill had more than 100 votes in November. That may be hard to believe, considering that it went down in flames 147 to 3. That was three votes for a bill that had 39 cosponsors.

''I never saw the religious community so ecumenical," Walsh noted. ''I wish they were this united on fighting for the rights of children."

The bill would have required religious institutions to release the same financial information that other nonprofits do, as well as annual audited financial statements from large groups.

While the measure was clearly aimed at the Catholic Church in response to the financial turmoil that followed the abuse scandal, a spectrum of religious groups banded together to shoot down the bill, mostly with a legally dubious assertion that such disclosure would violate the separation of church and state.

Thomas P. O'Neill III, the former lieutenant governor, was among those who thought the measure had a chance of healing some of the lingering wounds from the scandal. To him it was an issue of transparency.

''I'm for it because I think it would create some open air for the Archdiocese of Boston and other churches to show people how they collect money, spend money, and use it for their mission," he said yesterday. ''I think showing transparency could help them raise money."

But transparency was just the issue; the churches don't want transparency, and they don't want to establish the precedent that government can require them to do anything. They have no intention of living in the same world as the rest of us, scandal notwithstanding.

''Churches are probably the most powerful institutions in the state, and the sacred cow is money," Walsh said. ''They seem to want all the privilege and support of the public, and they don't want any of the responsibility."

The Archdiocese of Boston was far from alone in waging this battle. The Black Ministerial Alliance, among other groups, weighed in heavily against the bill, with no prodding from outside, according to its director.

''Senator Walsh said people don't understand the bill and its intent," said Harold Sparrow, executive director of the group. ''I find that patronizing. We understand the bill; we just don't agree with it. They try to say churches are charities. We are not a charity. It's an aspect of what we do, but not the whole game."

Obviously, the idea of financial disclosure is dead for the foreseeable future. Walsh said she would like to see religious organizations put forth their own proposal for improved transparency, but that's little more than a fantasy.

It was suggested yesterday that Walsh remains angry about the abuse scandal. She should, and she would have a lot of company in that regard. The implication that the two issues are related is absolutely true; a lack of openness allowed abuse for decades. And the archdiocese still opposes openness, at least on any terms it doesn't get to dictate. As for the Legislature, it took the path of least resistance, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

''I'm happy that we have tried," Walsh said. ''People don't agree with me, but I have the peace of mind that I made the effort."

[metro]

Found this on the LA Times website:

In Second Life, nobody knows you're a lapsed Catholic
Virtual houses of worship await you in the online universe. Can that emu sing a hymn in tune?
By Stephanie Simon
Times Staff Writer

April 8, 2007

If all goes well, the naked lady won't show up this morning when Pastor Craig Groeschel preaches his Easter service. But several cats will probably drop in. A horned dragon might perch on the crimson seats. There could even, perhaps, be an emu strolling in.

Groeschel will deliver his sermon in an Oklahoma City church. It will also be streamed over the Internet to the virtual world called Second Life — a world populated by 5 million pixilated characters of every description.

In this three-dimensional metaverse — a vivid, ever-changing universe created by gamers — characters can buy virtual clothes from real-world manufacturers, hold virtual rallies for flesh-and-blood politicians, and now, increasingly, worship in sync with the congregations in bricks-and-mortar churches.

The fast-growing world of Second Life has developed a rich spiritual dimension in the last year, welcoming congregations of Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and numerous Christian denominations.

Groeschel's evangelical LifeChurch.tv is the latest entrant, and today will broadcast a live Easter service in its entirety. Gamers who teleport their Second Life characters (known as avatars) to the church's virtual campus can use mouse clicks to manipulate their alter egos into kneeling, swaying or raising palms to the heavens as Groeschel's fast-paced, MTV-style sermon flickers across the computer screen.

Skeptics suggest that believers could find more enriching ways to spend Easter Sunday than tapping out commands to make animated emus pray.

"It's like online sex — it's satisfying in a weird way, I suppose … but the real thing is so much better, why would you want to waste your time on it?" asked Francis Maier, chancellor of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver and an avid video gamer.

Some Second Lifers also find the idea of virtual worship odd: They would rather spend their online time flying, shopping for risque clothes, chasing gorgeous blonds or engaging in other activities they would never attempt in a world marred by gravity and cellulite.

"SL is supposed to be an escape from real life, not a cartoon version of real life," said the avatar Pixeleen Mistral, managing editor of the virtual world's newspaper, the Second Life Herald.

Then again, it's not all escapism: There are Al-Anon meetings in Second Life, and dances and bingo games — and every manner of mundane daily activity, except perhaps the bathroom pit stop. While worship services may be a bit stilted online, veteran gamers say they can be surprisingly fulfilling. Communities as varied as Hare Krishna, Quaker and Mormon meet weekly for discussions, lectures, live streaming music and text-messaged prayer.

"It's obviously important for a small but significant number," said Yunus Yakoub, who's researching a doctoral dissertation on the religious dimensions of Second Life. Yakoub said he hears from several dozen avatars a week looking for information on virtual congregations.

Perhaps because all interactions are anonymous, conducted from behind facades, gamers say the spiritual conversations in Second Life tend to be more intimate and meaningful than the good-sermon-nice-weather exchanges that pass for conversation in real-world pews.

"We definitely feel the presence of the Holy Spirit there in Second Life," said Larry Transue, who runs the virtual Northbound Community Church, which is a ministry of the very real church of the same name, located in Thousand Oaks.

Transue does not view the virtual church as a substitute for the real thing. (That's why he's not hosting an Easter service today.) But he believes it can be an important supplement. And he hopes it can be a tool of evangelism, introducing nonbelievers — through their avatars — to the principles of faith.

New Jersey resident Nathan Schmalbach has been proselytizing on the virtual LifeChurch.tv campus since it opened for a test run a few weeks ago. Wandering through the online world, Schmalbach recently met an avatar who proclaimed his only faith was in evolution.

"We talked with him for a long time," Schmalbach said. "We really didn't get very far" — but they did set up another appointment to meet. "Maybe we'll get him to a new perspective."

LifeChurch, founded in 1996 as an edgy, youth-oriented congregation, tacked .tv onto its name to refer to its website. As the church expanded, it built satellite campuses across Oklahoma and also in Arizona, Texas, Tennessee and Florida. Most Sundays, congregations in those far-flung locations gather in school auditoriums and watch a broadcast of the service.

Gamers who visit the Second Life campus will feel as though they're in one of those satellite sanctuaries. They will have their avatars take a seat in the auditorium and watch a live video feed of the service on large screens at the front of the virtual room.

The online setup cost the church between $5,000 and $10,000 in programming and other expenses, according to Bobby Gruenewald, another pastor at LifeChurch.

Gruenewald has not been able to track the total number of visitors to LifeChurch's virtual campus, which is on Experience Island. But a snapshot of traffic Monday showed 3,912 avatars teleported to the church — considerably more than visited MTV's virtual Laguna Beach or Toyota's Scion City. (Of course, that same day, 8,693 avatars visited a coffee shop built to look like the set of Showtime's racy TV series "The L Word.")

The Easter service this morning will be an experiment — and it carries some risks. "Griefers," or online vandals, have been known to disrupt church activities by manipulating their characters to streak nude through a chapel or belch loudly during meditation. There's also a danger that nonbelievers posing as Christians could engage visitors in text-messaged conversation and teach them false theology.

But in the end, Gruenewald expects great benefits when cats, emus and impossibly buff surfer dudes gather together to celebrate Easter. "This is definitely a messy frontier," he said.

"We certainly don't think we have everything figured out. But we're anxious to see what God's going to do with it."

In Second Life, nobody knows you're a lapsed Catholic - Los Angeles Times

[PUGalicious]

I pointed out the following notable quote when I posted about this very same article in the www.secondlife.com thread...

Skeptics suggest that believers could find more enriching ways to spend Easter Sunday than tapping out commands to make animated emus pray.

"It's like online sex — it's satisfying in a weird way, I suppose … but the real thing is so much better, why would you want to waste your time on it?" asked Francis Maier, chancellor of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver and an avid video gamer.

[bandnerd]

It's like the sims2 on religious crack. I read about this in the Oklahoman. The idea bothers me.

I mean, why don't you go and actually MEET people in PERSON. But that's just me, I guess.

[metro]

PUGalious and bandnerd, I totally agree with you and people on secondlife further and further continue to distance themselves from the real world, and especially will in years to come as metaverses evolve. But the reality is, people do and will continue to live out their lives in secondlife. This is just merely a tool to reach these people that otherwise wouldn't go to church in real life. The goal is to hopefully get these people plugged into a real life church through secondlife, but you have to start somewhere. Obviously it's not for people like you or I and that's great, but its for the people who are WAYYYYYYY into stuff like this, they're the ones that really get it. I can't tell you how many avatars (people) I've talked to on there from all over the world and have been looking for a real life church but have been shunned, scared, hurt, or would normally never attend a church in real life, but through secondlife, they're more open and honest, because they can "hide" behind their screen and be more honest and open. I know it's my prayer and most people at our church, that these people will enter into real relationships with people, Christians, and a local church somewhere.

[southokie]

PUGalious and bandnerd, I totally agree with you and people on secondlife further and further continue to distance themselves from the real world, and especially will in years to come as metaverses evolve. But the reality is, people do and will continue to live out their lives in secondlife. This is just merely a tool to reach these people that otherwise wouldn't go to church in real life. The goal is to hopefully get these people plugged into a real life church through secondlife, but you have to start somewhere. Obviously it's not for people like you or I and that's great, but its for the people who are WAYYYYYYY into stuff like this, they're the ones that really get it. I can't tell you how many avatars (people) I've talked to on there from all over the world and have been looking for a real life church but have been shunned, scared, hurt, or would normally never attend a church in real life, but through secondlife, they're more open and honest, because they can "hide" behind their screen and be more honest and open. I know it's my prayer and most people at our church, that these people will enter into real relationships with people, Christians, and a local church somewhere.

To say "this is just merely a tool to reach (secondlifer's)" in order to "reach these people and get them plugged into a real life church" is like saying "we are just trying to give heroine to addicts in order to start somewhere.

[jbrown84]

metro, I just think you're coming really close to encouraging staying in this world by taking it this far. If you offer church in secondlife, why would these people be convinced to leave it (their comfort zone) for the real world church, where we get community and fellowship--two very key components of the New Testament church that you say Lifechurch emulates better than any church you know.

[metro]

then perhaps you should personally create a secondlife account, talk to these seekers and then make an informed decision. I have personally talked to others that have got the answers they were looking for on secondlife so they can apply them in real life and eventually get plugged in a real life church. of course however, you continually look for the wrong in everything instead of seeing the potential it has.

[jbrown84]

Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm just expressing a concern. This generation is getting closer and closer to living in the Matrix, and further and further from any real community with people. We text instead of call, we instant message instead of meeting people for coffee.

[writerranger]

Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm just expressing a concern. This generation is getting closer and closer to living in the Matrix, and further and further from any real community with people. We text instead of call, we instant message instead of meeting people for coffee.

I haven't posted much in this thread, but Jason, you are so right about this. It's almost scary when you realize how much time people spend online versus people getting together. So, when's coffee? It's on me.

-------------------------

[CMSturgeon]

Back to the billboards, one can be seen while driving south on I-35 in between 59th and the I-240 junction. I think.

[PUGalicious]

then perhaps you should personally create a secondlife account, talk to these seekers and then make an informed decision. I have personally talked to others that have got the answers they were looking for on secondlife so they can apply them in real life and eventually get plugged in a real life church. of course however, you continually look for the wrong in everything instead of seeing the potential it has.

If potential is the measure, imagine the potential if your church were to offer free needles, smack or pot... just think of all the new people that could be reached that wouldn't come otherwise...

The question remains, when do the costs (including the cost of compromise) outweigh the benefits?

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship. Members can say that their church is doing this and doing that (like having an online church experience on a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world) and they feel less of a responsibility to personally get involved in the lives of those around them, demonstrating Christ in their own lives that draws the seekers into asking them questions rather than letting artificial means give the answers. God is a very personal God, not a virtual God. Unbelievers have enough trouble believing in an unseen God, how much more than when they are being evangelized in a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world.

Just because something has potential doesn't automatically make it a good thing... or even a God thing.

On that note, I'll pop on over to Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. now and "experience" the virtual LifeChurch.tv service so that I don't have to change out of my pajamas and leave the confines of my living room to go to my real church... with real people... and with real accountability...

[southokie]

If potential is the measure, imagine the potential if your church were to offer free needles, smack or pot... just think of all the new people that could be reached that wouldn't come otherwise...

The question remains, when do the costs (including the cost of compromise) outweigh the benefits?

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship. Members can say that their church is doing this and doing that (like having an online church experience on a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world) and they feel less of a responsibility to personally get involved in the lives of those around them, demonstrating Christ in their own lives that draws the seekers into asking them questions rather than letting artificial means give the answers. God is a very personal God, not a virtual God. Unbelievers have enough trouble believing in an unseen God, how much more than when they are being evangelized in a virtual -- as in NOT REAL -- world.

Just because something has potential doesn't automatically make it a good thing... or even a God thing.

On that note, I'll pop on over to Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. now and "experience" the virtual LifeChurch.tv service so that I don't have to change out of my pajamas and leave the confines of my living room to go to my real church... with real people... and with real accountability...

What are we talking about here people!!??

I mean, what IF one of these second lifer's found the illustrious "sword of a thousand truths" and actually made it to Mordor????

I mean, we'd all totally be screwed!

[jbrown84]

What I find interesting is that all these "evangelism tools" that churches like LifeChurch involves misses a very key component to effective and lasting evangelism — relationship.

ding ding ding!

[metro]

I'm sure I'll get flamed as usual, but Lifechurch.tv just opened a new campus in Albany, New York.

[jbrown84]

For what it's worth, I'm sure that market could use something like a LifeChurch campus a lot more than Dallas or another section of OKC.

[BaconCheeseburgerDeluxe]

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."

[Easy180]

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."

Maybe a joint venture with State Farm to offer that as a rider on life and long term care insurance...Think you are onto something Bacon!!

[PUGalicious]

I drove by the new one on Expressway and Macarthur. I could not believe they had a store in the church.

I can only imagine what they sell in there. Pastor Craig keychains, coffee mugs, t-shirts, calendars, DVD's, antenna balls, bobblehead dolls, bumper stickers and every other gawdy thing you see in souviener shop. I wonder it they have a life size cardboard cutout of him in there?

Now there is a novel concept. Not only can you suck money out people's pocket through tithing, you can market the church just like a professional sports team.

What is next? The buy your way in to heaven program. I can see the TV commerical now. Announcer: "Just like the days prior to the reformation you can buy a place in heaven for only 200 monthly installments of 149.99."

I'm not apologist for Lifechurch and, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a former member. Having said that, you have completely mischaracterized the church store in a blatantly unfair way. I'm all for legitimate and fair criticism, but yours falls painfully short of rational, credible discourse.

[jbrown84]

I agree for the most part.

[metro]

Indeed PUG, while others don't always see I to eye with me on lifechurch.tv, the judging was clearly unfair and off base. In fact, many churches including small churches today have a bookstore/coffeeshop, etc. Why is it a sin to charge at or below market value and give Christians and non-Christians tools (books, CD's, etc.) in a convenient way? Have you seen Mardel's and other places and how much they charge for things? If anything, you should be upset with that.

[Patrick]

Indeed PUG, while others don't always see I to eye with me on lifechurch.tv, the judging was clearly unfair and off base. In fact, many churches including small churches today have a bookstore/coffeeshop, etc. Why is it a sin to charge at or below market value and give Christians and non-Christians tools (books, CD's, etc.) in a convenient way? Have you seen Mardel's and other places and how much they charge for things? If anything, you should be upset with that.

Not at all. David Green is one of the 400 top richest Americans.

[teach4reasons]

I started going to LifeChurch 3 years ago after I began dating my boyfriend. I was raised a Lutheran and didn't attend church for many years after beginning college and thereafter. I didn't feel as if I had to beleive or worship inside a specific building to meet my emotional needs. Boy I was wrong. I love LifeChurch, its message, purpose and the people. I rarely miss and only do so if I go visit my family and attend the church where I grew up. Being Lutheran I had a hard time follwing the message and theology, but Craig has a way of making it relevant to today. I love it and do not plan on ever changing churches........ Thanks to Craig and all the others at Lifechurch. WHOEVER FINDS GOD, FINDS LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME, ALL THE TIME GOD IS GOOD.....