Road Rage incident

[mkjeeves]

when turning right on red, the driver has to first come to a stop and then must yield to any traffic that has the right of way before proceeding... so effectively the intersection should be clear. can't believe this even has to be explained. -M

Below is the law. Right turn on red must yield to others lawfully using the intersection. If they are left turning into the right hand lane, against the law posted above, they aren't lawfully using the intersection are they? But be cautious, there are uninformed idiots out there and it's the law.

3. Steady red indication:

a. vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in subparagraphs b and d of this paragraph,

b. except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, vehicular traffic facing any steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to turn right or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street after stopping as required by subparagraph a of this paragraph. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection,

OSCN Found Document:Traffic-Control Signal Legend - Motorcycle Mobility and Safety Act

[TheTravellers]

Interesting, thanks for the findings! I checked Title 47 and didn't see the part about "After entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection, as nearly as practicable, in the left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being entered." for some reason. I feel slightly vindicated.

[Martin]

Below is the law. Right turn on red must yield to others lawfully using the intersection. If they are left turning into the right hand lane, against the law posted above, they aren't lawfully using the intersection are they?

i think 'lawfully using the intersection' means that it is lawful for the vehicle to enter the intersection, not whether or not a vehicle was lawfully turning into the correct lane. as such, the person turning right at the red light must yield the right-of-way.

and given the information in the post that started this discussion, i wouldn't categorize a driver who knowingly turns in front of other traffic in order to cause them to swerve to avoid a collision as 'cautiously entering the intersection.'

-M

[mkjeeves]

i think 'lawfully using the intersection' means that it is lawful for the vehicle to enter the intersection, not whether or not a vehicle was lawfully turning into the correct lane. as such, the person turning right at the red light must yield the right-of-way.

and given the information in the post that started this discussion, i wouldn't categorize a driver who knowingly turns in front of other traffic in order to cause them to swerve to avoid a collision as 'cautiously entering the intersection.'

-M

I don't. I think it means lawfully using the intersection. Which is a lot different requirement than waiting until the intersection is clear or giving right-o-way to everyone in the intersection for whatever reason, speeding, driving the wrong way, making illegal turns (jaywalking) etc.

In any case, an informed driver making a cautious right turn on red has every right to do so with the expectation the left turner won't be in that lane. A left turner hitting someone in the right hand lane clearly broke the law.

[Bill Robertson]

https://www.dps.state.ok.us/dls/odm.html

Page 7-7 (6. Finish turn in proper lane) and 7-8 (DO NOT ENTER INTERSECTION IN RIGHT HAND LANE) are where I got my info from. So it's apparently just a suggestion to do that and not a law, oh well. And OKC is the only place I've lived where this happens with regularity - other drivers in pretty much all the other cities I've lived in seem to turn left into the left lane, right into the right lane and everybody gets along.

My daughter got a ticket for turning into the wrong lane not long ago. She figured the cop must have been really bored.

[Martin]

I don't. I think it means lawfully using the intersection. Which is a lot different requirement than waiting until the intersection is clear or giving right-o-way to everyone in the intersection for whatever reason, speeding, driving the wrong way, making illegal turns (jaywalking) etc.

i see... so if one of my headlights is out, i'm not lawfully using the intersection? that just doesn't make sense. the plainest reading is that the vehicle had the right to enter the intersection, not that every single aspect of the vehicle's behavior was 'lawful.'

In any case, an informed driver making a cautious right turn on red has every right to do so with the expectation the left turner won't be in that lane. A left turner hitting someone in the right hand lane clearly broke the law.

and i think that the failure to yield outweighs the left-turner being in the wrong lane. tell you what... i'll ask a couple police officer friends and will report their take on it.

-M

[mkjeeves]

i see... so if one of my headlights is out, i'm not lawfully using the intersection? that just doesn't make sense. the plainest reading is that the vehicle had the right to enter the intersection, not that every single aspect of the vehicle's behavior was 'lawful.'


and i think that the failure to yield outweighs the left-turner being in the wrong lane. tell you what... i'll ask a couple police officer friends and will report their take on it.

-M

More like I turn right to proceed the direction you are coming from, you have a green arrow to turn left the direction I'm coming from but you make an illegal u-turn and hit me. I had an expectation you were going to follow the law WRT lanes and turning and where you end up but you didn't follow the law. I did not have a requirement to sit and wait until the entire intersection is clear, nor give right of way to every possible law you might break while going through a green arrow, or green light, or otherwise have entered the intersection lawfully.

[Martin]

huh, guess it isn't that simple... asked two friends in okcpd and got two different answers. the one who currently works traffic says that the driver who failed to yield is at fault. the one who hasn't worked traffic in years (but probably has more overall experience) says it's the driver who turned into the wrong lane since that's what technically caused the crash but thinks it's possible that both could be found to be at fault. if he gets a chance, he's going to follow up with a traffic investigator to get his take on it.

-M

[ctchandler]

My opinion for what it's worth is green trumps red in most, if not all situations except when there is a sign overriding it as there is in Edmond at 2nd just West of Broadway where a sign says u-turns yield to right turn on red drivers. But what I would like to know is if I am going North, turning West (left) to go to the 7-11 at Hefner and May, how am I supposed to do that? I try when possible to stay in the leftmost lane and quickly signal and move over to the right lane and make my turn. That seems very legal, but from what some of you are saying, I could be running into you since you made a right turn on red. Do I do like some idiots and stop in the middle of the road and wait till all of the folks "SLOWING DOWN" before turning on red drive by before I make my right turn? And yes, the "SLOWING DOWN" was capitalized for a reason since most people don't stop before turning right on red. As a matter of fact, many of them race through to beat somebody turning left regardless of whether there are one or two lanes.
C. T.

[TheTravellers]

huh, guess it isn't that simple... asked two friends in okcpd and got two different answers. the one who currently works traffic says that the driver who failed to yield is at fault. the one who hasn't worked traffic in years (but probably has more overall experience) says it's the driver who turned into the wrong lane since that's what technically caused the crash but thinks it's possible that both could be found to be at fault. if he gets a chance, he's going to follow up with a traffic investigator to get his take on it.

-M

Actually, TBH, I figured that might be the outcome if a crash ever happened - both might get written up, either, or neither, would probably depend highly on the circumstances and demeanor of everybody (including the cop) involved.

[TheTravellers]

... I try when possible to stay in the leftmost lane and quickly signal and move over to the right lane and make my turn. That seems very legal, but from what some of you are saying, I could be running into you since you made a right turn on red. ...

I think that's what you're supposed to do, according to the diagram in the link to the pdf I posted above, it's the people that turn from the left turn lane all the way over into the right hand lane immediately after making their turn (i.e., no turning into the left, signalling, moving quickly over, just turning completely into the right lane to start with) that are the problem.

[mkjeeves]

My opinion for what it's worth is green trumps red in most, if not all situations except when there is a sign overriding it as there is in Edmond at 2nd just West of Broadway where a sign says u-turns yield to right turn on red drivers. But what I would like to know is if I am going North, turning West (left) to go to the 7-11 at Hefner and May, how am I supposed to do that? I try when possible to stay in the leftmost lane and quickly signal and move over to the right lane and make my turn. That seems very legal, but from what some of you are saying, I could be running into you since you made a right turn on red. Do I do like some idiots and stop in the middle of the road and wait till all of the folks "SLOWING DOWN" before turning on red drive by before I make my right turn? And yes, the "SLOWING DOWN" was capitalized for a reason since most people don't stop before turning right on red. As a matter of fact, many of them race through to beat somebody turning left regardless of whether there are one or two lanes.
C. T.

I feel your pain but don't think you can legally make that approach into 7-11. By law you have to turn into the left lane. Then you have to signal lane change 100' before you change lanes to get in the right hand lane. Then you have to signal again 100 feet before you turn right. The 7-11 entry off Hefner looks to be about 100' from the intersection so it's sketchy to make a legal turn even if you could turn left into the right lane and there weren't any cars in that lane.

Go straight through the intersection and turn left off May into the parking lot behind the guy making the right turn on red onto Hefner, go around the block or try a different approach altogether.

Now I gotta keep an eye out for that u-turn yield to right turners sign.

[ctchandler]

Now I gotta keep an eye out for that u-turn yield to right turners sign.

Mkjeeves,
It's at 15th and Fretz, East bound. I said 2nd by mistake. And I'm sure there are others. By the way, unless the law has changed, if there is not a sign saying "U-turn permitted", u-turns are illegal with the exception of wide medians where it is considered two left turns, not a u-turn. I called the police back in the 90's to verify this. I had learned it in drivers-ed in 1959. But, will you ever get a ticket for a u-turn? I seriously doubt it.
C. T.

[ctchandler]

I feel your pain but don't think you can legally make that approach into 7-11. By law you have to turn into the left lane. Then you have to signal lane change 100' before you change lanes to get in the right hand lane. Then you have to signal again 100 feet before you turn right. The 7-11 entry off Hefner looks to be about 100' from the intersection so it's sketchy to make a legal turn even if you could turn left into the right lane and there weren't any cars in that lane.

Go straight through the intersection and turn left off May into the parking lot behind the guy making the right turn on red onto Hefner, go around the block or try a different approach altogether.

Now I gotta keep an eye out for that u-turn yield to right turners sign.

Mkjeeves,
I find it difficult to believe that anyone that turns right on red has the right of way over a legal left turn. I have always believed that the wording on "right on red" was similar to a yield sign. If somebody fails to yield and an accident is involved they are always at fault. And I'm not convinced that the right turn on red is not treated the same. Maybe a policeman will chime in sometime.
C. T.

[rezman]

My opinion for what it's worth is green trumps red in most, if not all situations except when there is a sign overriding it as there is in Edmond at 2nd just West of Broadway where a sign says u-turns yield to right turn on red drivers. But what I would like to know is if I am going North, turning West (left) to go to the 7-11 at Hefner and May, how am I supposed to do that? I try when possible to stay in the leftmost lane and quickly signal and move over to the right lane and make my turn. That seems very legal, but from what some of you are saying, I could be running into you since you made a right turn on red. Do I do like some idiots and stop in the middle of the road and wait till all of the folks "SLOWING DOWN" before turning on red drive by before I make my right turn? And yes, the "SLOWING DOWN" was capitalized for a reason since most people don't stop before turning right on red. As a matter of fact, many of them race through to beat somebody turning left regardless of whether there are one or two lanes.
C. T.

C.T. , that very same situation exists at the corner of Memorial and Western. When I'm southbound Western and turning left onto eastbound Memorial, and I want to turn into the OnCue on the corner, I, as well as anyone else for that matter has to approach the entrance almost at an angle after clearing the intersection, as the entrance is right off of Western. I've seen this turn made in that fashion in front of OPCD and OCS and it seems like they understand what it takes to pull in there as they have to do the same thing. And forget about continuing straight south through the intersection and turning left into the OnCue if there's any northbound traffic at all on Western.

[Plutonic Panda]

nm

[hoya]

I've found that my large truck and Yosemite Sam "Back Off!" mudflaps let people know not to mess with me.

[RadicalModerate]

Here, on The Cusps of both Spring and Easter and Sunday, in Oklahoma and elsewhere, I find the juxtaposition of two Postal Threads involving proper behavior, in traffic, by our Host, particularly interesting. It's almost like a Culture Clash without a Culture Crash. The first involved his speeding and asshole cop ticket writer on 10th St. (totally unfair, in my opinion). The second, a conflict with a "citizen" intent on being pissed off at proper driving. What sense can be made of these two incidents? None that I can think of. Other than, Support Your Local Police. (they are, like, the complaint department of the entire local universe sworn to serve and protect. even in L.A.) Or, as I've read they say in Texas (or at least used to): Drive Friendly. (Edited to Add: Or Else. With a smile. Not a simile. =~)

[OkieHornet]

And if you do something rude to me, almost always chuckle, shrug it off, and shake my head at how dumb people can be. I don't take it personal. Life's too short, and giving in to road rage tends to make it even shorter.

i feel like this got overlooked and wish others would subscribe to this.

[adaniel]

i feel like this got overlooked and wish others would subscribe to this.

This. So much this.

People nowadays are CRAZY. And, I'm just going to say it, this is a part of the country with a lot of firearms. You have no idea what will set people off.

One thing I have learned is, as dangerous and idiotic as some drivers can be, you will likely never see that person again beyond the 5-10 seconds on the road. Do not give them any more power over your life or well being than they deserve. Don't try and "prove a point" or get a one-up on someone, just let them drive, be crazy and move on.

[corwin1968]

I gave up on road rage a long time ago. I always tell my wife that when I'm driving I consider everyone else to be an idiot but I also understand that in some situations, I'm the idiot. I've screwed up before and got honked at. I wave in acknowledgement that it was my fault and that almost always settles it. If someone does something "idiotic" to me while driving, I chalk it up to them making a mistake that I've made before and forget about it. The only time I will even honk is if we are in immediate danger of colliding. Life's too short and driving is already too stressful.

[Pete]

I do the "my bad" wave whenever I feel like I may have been in the wrong and usually without anyone even honking.

In this case, I'm very sure I didn't do anything wrong and the guy was right behind me honking and flipping me off. I couldn't bring myself to do the wave but at least I didn't say or do anything in return, which is about the limit of any one person's self control.

[ou48A]

You can’t control what you can’t control…..Regardless of what our driving laws say drive with patients in a step by step way that avoids giving others cause for anxiety and you’re usually ok.
I see very few RR problems in the suburbs….. but more in central OKC.

People tend to bring their driving habits with them no matter where they go.

I have made this observation…A seemingly high disproportional number of I-35 accidents from OKC south involve vehicles with Texas license plates!

[rezman]

I think if all motorists were required to take some form of motorcycle training, and view traffic from a motorcyclists perspective, they would see the left/right turn lane useage differently, and stay in the closest lane after their turn, and then signal over to the next lane after their turn is made.

[Bill Robertson]

I think if all motorists were required to take some form of motorcycle training, and view traffic from a motorcyclists perspective, they would see the left/right turn lane useage differently, and stay in the closest lane after their turn, and then signal over to the next lane after their turn is made.

As a pipe dream I wish everyone rode a bike. I notice so much more on the road than any non-rider I know. As a rider you HAVE to notice EVERYTHING around you.