Oklahoma liquor laws

[Uptowner]

There's evidence to support their claims of significant numbers of stores going under. I look forward to having to drive an extra ten miles to find the beer I want. But in exchange I can buy crap wine at the grocery. I love that trade off!

This is just red herring. Of course a lot of crappy little bottle shops are going to close. Good riddance. You've obviously never been a quality grocer like winco, HEB, hell even kroger has a better wine and beer selection than %99 of liquor stores in OK. If there's a store like freeman's on western that goes to painstaking ends to stock all the hard to find beers. They're going to be fine. They're going to be more than fine because all the crappy little bottle shops will be fewer and far between and they will see increased liquor sales.

People keep using buzz words phrases: dollars for walmart and people are going to lose their jobs. It's called a free market. It changes shape and conforms to what the consumer wants. And you asking the Govt. to keep stepping on everyone's toes to preserve the status quo which supports hundreds of pitiful liquor stores that would be crushed by someone who has their act together and can give the consumer what they want.

[jerrywall]

You obviously know nothing about the liquor retail business. Stores like Freeman's will go out of business and if you can't recognize that, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You seem to celebrate in glee at the idea of driving local retailers out of business, which makes me question your motives. Especially when there are good alternatives being offered. Wal-Mart investor?

[Uptowner]

You're going a bit Trump-ey on me here man. You obviously know nothing about the retail business as a whole. All the while clinging to an ancient good-ole-boy system. Former failed liquor store owner?

[jerrywall]

Nope. I do know about the retail system. You obviously don't. What do you have against the other proposals, besides corporate investment? Have you even read them, or are you speaking from ignorance? Feel free to lay out facts. It would be a nice change.

[bradh]

I am fairly confident that my go to store will not close, it's the best liqour store on the NW side.

[jerrywall]

I am fairly confident that my go to store will not close, it's the best liqour store on the NW side.

The only stores I confident won't close are Byron's, the cellar, and Pancho's. Every other store is one bad week from closing. The liquor retail business is a very slim margin/profit business.

[jerrywall]

There are four liquor stores in Edmond I frequent, and which are great shops with amazing selection and service. One is across the street from Crest, one in front of a Walmart neighborhood market, one in a target parking lot, and one by sprouts. The one by Sprouts has the best chance.

If we can reform our laws and still protect local businesses and not reduce availability and creates monopolies, why shouldn't we? What's the motive of certain folks and posters?

[Uptowner]

I never get combative on this site but Jerrywall your fallacy is overwhelming. Have you not been to another state with regular liquor laws? Even in states like Arizona where liquor is sold freely in any gas stations (Hell I bought a bottle of wild turkey in a Kansas City Walgreens). All those cities still have specialty wine, liquor, and beer shops that do just fine. And guess what bubba? They have lots of cool little bodegas, neighborhood markets, and delis that sell specialty food items BECAUSE they can bolster their sales and frequency of customers by selling alcohol.

Business is a game of adapt and survive. No one should get to have the government protect them against competitors. I operate 3 different businesses and am invested in several others, including bars and restaurants. I know the laws, I know the distribution process, I know the brokers, yes the margins are slim, that's retail.

Retail should be all about giving the customer the experience they want. Sears is dying, jcpenny is dying, homeland is dying. These retailers can't keep up with newer and better competitors giving the customer more appealing products and shopping experiences. The government doesn't get to step in and make rules so they keep a monopoly.

The sky is not falling Sir. It's just business.

[bradh]

The only stores I confident won't close are Byron's, the cellar, and Pancho's. Every other store is one bad week from closing. The liquor retail business is a very slim margin/profit business.

When I discuss the new laws with the owner of Wild Turkey who I have come to know over the years, he doesn't seem to be too worried and is welcoming some change. Now, it's been a while since we've talked specifically about changes, but they don't seem too worried.

[jerrywall]

When I discuss the new laws with the owner of Wild Turkey who I have come to know over the years, he doesn't seem to be too worried and is welcoming some change. Now, it's been a while since we've talked specifically about changes, but they don't seem too worried.

Ask him which bill he prefers. I'll bet you a cold one.

[TheTravellers]

OK, just to make it less confusing, anybody have a link or a quick comparison of how the multiple (although I think there are only 2 - SJR 68 and SB383, but not totally sure) bills/resolutions differ?

[bille]

Dang Jerry, by your math we'll be closing 95% of our liquor stores. You can't honestly think the fallout will be that grave. I totally anticipate 20% closure and I'm ok with that. Those that close will be the crappy liquor stores I go into and know more about the products they carry than they do. The stores that are really in it to be the best will survive and thrive.

[jerrywall]

Dang Jerry, by your math we'll be closing 95% of our liquor stores. You can't honestly think the fallout will be that grave. I totally anticipate 20% closure and I'm ok with that. Those that close will be the crappy liquor stores I go into and know more about the products they carry than they do. The stores that are really in it to be the best will survive and thrive.

What math? Nowhere did I say we'll be closing 95% of stores. I listed the ones I felt were 100% safe. That's all. Any other store is a potential, because the margins are so slim. I know this from experience. When we had our shop, we carried every single beer that was available in Oklahoma, a couple thousand different wines, a quality liquor selection, did tastings weekly, had Wednesday wine specials, and were extremely knowledgeable on the product. However, we never had this giant cushion or profit margin people seem to think liquor stores have. Even the so called "good stores", the owner is working 60+ hours a week, and just gets by.

Why not implement the solution that improves our laws, keeps the able commission to enforce our laws, and is less likely to impact our state owned businesses? Or we can take the one that provides for monopoly type agreements with distributors and wholesalers, and is a gift for Wal-Mart.

[jerrywall]

OK, just to make it less confusing, anybody have a link or a quick comparison of how the multiple (although I think there are only 2 - SJR 68 and SB383, but not totally sure) bills/resolutions differ?

Here is the RLAO proposal as well.

http://www.sos.ok.gov/documents/Questions/785.pdf

I haven't seen a good listing of the differences but here are a few as I understand them.

SJR eliminates the ABLE commission. It has no limits on the number of wine and beer licenses a corporation can own. It changes or distribution system and will allow exclusivity agreements.

SQ785 puts limits on the number of wine licenses a corporation can hold (one initially and up to 3 can be purchased). It keeps the ABLE commission (which is fully funded from the licensing fees, not taxpayer dollars). It addresses breweries and brewpubs specifically, helping them out (and putting them on equal footing with wineries). It also puts money into the department of mental health and services for drug and alcohol treatment programs (again, from fees, not tax dollars). It also will allow liquor stores to open on the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and New Years Day.

Both bills provide for single strength beer in Oklahoma, cold beer in liquor stores, gas stations, and grocery, and to a limited extent on the SQ785, wine in grocery stores. Both allow up to 20% of non liquor products at liquor stores.

[barrettd]

Here is the RLAO proposal as well.

It also will allow liquor stores to open on the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and New Years Day.

Do you read that passage as banning alcohol sales altogether on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day? It would be unfortunate if we couldn't even run out to the grocery store and grab beer on those days since we can currently.

[jerrywall]

Do you read that passage as banning alcohol sales altogether on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day? It would be unfortunate if we couldn't even run out to the grocery store and grab beer on those days since we can currently.

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure those hours/provisions only apply to retail liquor stores. So beer sales in grocery and gas stations would be 7 days a week and until 2am, and on the holidays, etc, like they currently are.

[gopokes88]

Here is the RLAO proposal as well.

http://www.sos.ok.gov/documents/Questions/785.pdf

I haven't seen a good listing of the differences but here are a few as I understand them.

SJR eliminates the ABLE commission. It has no limits on the number of wine and beer licenses a corporation can own. It changes or distribution system and will allow exclusivity agreements.

SQ785 puts limits on the number of wine licenses a corporation can hold (one initially and up to 3 can be purchased). It keeps the ABLE commission (which is fully funded from the licensing fees, not taxpayer dollars). It addresses breweries and brewpubs specifically, helping them out (and putting them on equal footing with wineries). It also puts money into the department of mental health and services for drug and alcohol treatment programs (again, from fees, not tax dollars). It also will allow liquor stores to open on the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and New Years Day.

Both bills provide for single strength beer in Oklahoma, cold beer in liquor stores, gas stations, and grocery, and to a limited extent on the SQ785, wine in grocery stores. Both allow up to 20% of non liquor products at liquor stores.

SJR will be tied up in lawsuits for years and years and years.

Everyone keeps preaching free market and that's fine, but heavily regualting an industry for 50 years on a dime opening it up the Wild West and then slamming the liquor stores for not adapting is insane. That's not free market that's lobbying. Saying liquor stores should have adapted, reeks of ignorance. If they could adapt they would but there's currently a mountain of regulations on opening up and running a liquor store. Sole prop, must buy inventory with cash no credit, must be a 7 year resident of Oklahoma, restricted hours, they even have regulations about the temperature of the store, no cold beer, the list goes on and on.

In any other thread this site would be unleashing hell on wal mart for manipulating the system to crush small business but by damn you gotta buy you crappy $3 buck chuck no matter what.

Jerry wall isn't against modernizing he's against screwing over a bunch of Oklahomans who have played by the rules for years and years and now have to make massive changes fast because wal mart owns Clark jolley.

[David]

If you are going to make that kind of accusation against Jolley, at least try to be accurate. From https://ballotpedia.org/Clark_Jolley#2012_2

Oklahoma State Senate 2012 election - Campaign Contributions
Top contributors to Clark Jolley's campaign in 2012
Balance Forward $145,542
Oklahoma Spine Hospital $10,000
Oklahoma Public Employees Association $8,000
Chickasaw Nation $7,000
Chesapeake Energy $6,449
Total Raised in 2012 $604,501

Edited, that was kind of harsh.

[bille]

What math? Nowhere did I say we'll be closing 95% of stores. I listed the ones I felt were 100% safe. That's all. Any other store is a potential, because the margins are so slim. I know this from experience. When we had our shop, we carried every single beer that was available in Oklahoma, a couple thousand different wines, a quality liquor selection, did tastings weekly, had Wednesday wine specials, and were extremely knowledgeable on the product. However, we never had this giant cushion or profit margin people seem to think liquor stores have. Even the so called "good stores", the owner is working 60+ hours a week, and just gets by.

Why not implement the solution that improves our laws, keeps the able commission to enforce our laws, and is less likely to impact our state owned businesses? Or we can take the one that provides for monopoly type agreements with distributors and wholesalers, and is a gift for Wal-Mart.

What makes the few stores you mention on the survival list? Is it that they're simply moving a ton of product?

And I realize the profit margins are slim but if they're so slim why are there so many liquor stores? They're everywhere!

[jerrywall]

Liquor stores also have a pretty high turn (go out of business, change hands, etc). With rare exception folks don't get rich running liquor stores. Especially now. And as you mentioned, there are a ton of liquor stores. The market is at or past capacity. Last count I saw was around 700 stores in Oklahoma. How many gas stations are there in Oklahoma? And grocery stores? I know there are over 100 7-11s in the metro alone. Adding hundreds if not thousands of new outlets won't increase liquor sales or generate new revenues. It will take the two most profitable product lines out of liquor stores. I don't know if I buy that 350 liquor stores closing estimate, but if our market saturation adjusts to what Texas's is like, it's probably not far off. Buying liquor in Texas is great, if you happen to be near a Specs or something, but there are plenty of areas even in the Dallas metro where it's difficult to find a decent retailer, or even a retailer at all, outside of a grocery store.

All things being equal, why not go with the option that helps small business in Oklahoma?

[barrettd]

This is the piece to which I'm referring. Looks to include both types of Retail.

Though I can't figure out how to enlarge the image, click for bigger version.

[jerrywall]

I believe that's just wine on the grocery side though. I could be wrong though, although if so, it would still leave beer sales to be sellable on 365 days a year at gas stations.

[barrettd]

I believe that's just wine on the grocery side though. I could be wrong though, although if so, it would still leave beer sales to be sellable on 365 days a year at gas stations.

That's what I'm hoping, even though it says "any alcoholic beverage".

EDIT: What you're saying is gas stations are neither of the Retail types and would not be included in this piece?

[jerrywall]

That's what I'm hoping, even though it says "any alcoholic beverage".

EDIT: What you're saying is gas stations are neither of the Retail types and would not be included in this piece?

Correct. There are 3 proposed classes of retail licenses. 1 - Retail Package - those are liquor stores, 2 - Retail Grocery Wine, 3 - Retail Beer. So grocery stores would have up to two licenses per store. One for beer, and one for wine. Gas stations would just have the retail beer license, which does not appear to be regulated the same as retail package and wine licenses. Now what I'm unclear on is how it's handled for an entity with two licenses (beer and wine). I'd assume that the wine sales have to follow regular liquor restrictions, such as no Sundays, and no sales on Christmas, and beer would not.

[Uptowner]

I'm in a small beach town in Florida in a regional grocer called "publix" look how horrible their wine selection is.