Oklahoma liquor laws

[ctchandler]

I just talked to my friend in London and she corrected me about cask ales in London, typically, pubs very near the Thames don't have cask ale because they seldom have cellars (due to flooding). Away from the Thames (which would be the majority of pubs), it's not and issue, they often have cask ales.
C. T.

[Uptowner]

Uptowner,
There are eleven pubs within one mile of my friends house, and the cask ale is subterranean and the other beers are refrigerated like any normal American bar and they are not subterranean. I have been all over England, Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall (as well as Ireland, but little or no cask ale there), and If you spend some time in London, most pubs do not have cask ale because they were not built with the subterranean facility. I believe that's because of their proximity to the Thames, but I might be wrong. I have also enjoyed cask ale at pubs that have the "casks" or kegs lying on their sides on a shelf above bar level, they are not as cool as those that are in the cellar, but still quite good. I don't remember seeing any pubs in London that used this method. I suspect that the term "warm beer" came from this style of storing the kegs. One of should start another thread to talk about various styles of beer since this one was meant to be about Oklahoma's liquor laws. Oh well, if somebody tells me to shut up, I will.
C. T.

They're getting very high tech over there. My good friend is a free-trade contractor to big breweries in Bristol. The breweries all pay to have their beers installed in pubs. But in most cases they OWN the pubs. A few visits ago he showed me a system he installed in a free house that had casks behind the bar on shelves like you described, but spring loaded so they start at an angle when full then gradually tipped up to tell you how much beer was left. They also had blankets wrapped around them lined with chilled water piped through a cooler/pump to keep the beer exactly 53 degrees. Best beer I ever had.

I wonder what the landscape in OK would look like if breweries were allowed to own bars?

[Laramie]

Anheuser Busch (AB) obviously wants to hang on to those five or six states that sell 3.2 beer in the grocery stores.

Don't know how they actually brew the 3.2 beer; however, if it's as simple as a watered down product in which AB can distribute--why would they want to promote the stronger stuff in Oklahoma?

[ctchandler]

They're getting very high tech over there. My good friend is a free-trade contractor to big breweries in Bristol. The breweries all pay to have their beers installed in pubs. But in most cases they OWN the pubs. A few visits ago he showed me a system he installed in a free house that had casks behind the bar on shelves like you described, but spring loaded so they start at an angle when full then gradually tipped up to tell you how much beer was left. They also had blankets wrapped around them lined with chilled water piped through a cooler/pump to keep the beer exactly 53 degrees. Best beer I ever had.

I wonder what the landscape in OK would look like if breweries were allowed to own bars?

Uptowner,
The "Free Houses" (I thought that meant "free beer"! Ok, not really, I guess I just hoped.) seem to be more of the norm now. Of the eleven pubs within a mile of my friends home, only one is brewer owned, it's the Greyhound and it is owned by Youngs brewerey. It's located in Carshalton. The difference today about a brewery owned pub is that most of them offer other brands. For years, they only sold their beers and nothing else.
C. T.

[ctchandler]

Anheuser Busch (AB) obviously wants to hang on to those five or six states that sell 3.2 beer in the grocery stores.

Don't know how they actually brew the 3.2 beer; however, if it's as simple as a watered down product in which AB can distribute--why would they want to promote the stronger stuff in Oklahoma?

Laramie,
I have heard the term "watered down" for years, but in reality, doesn't the alcohol level have more to do with the amount of sugar used in the brewing process? I have done the home brew thing and if I'm not mistaken, a teaspoon of sugar per bottle will result in the higher alcohol beer and less sugar will result in lower alcohol content. What do you think?
C. T.

[Laramie]

Laramie,
I have heard the term "watered down" for years, but in reality, doesn't the alcohol level have more to do with the amount of sugar used in the brewing process? I have done the home brew thing and if I'm not mistaken, a teaspoon of sugar per bottle will result in the higher alcohol beer and less sugar will result in lower alcohol content. What do you think?'
C. T.

You're probably correct CT. My knowledge of this wouldn't get me past the fifth grade. I would love to do the home brew thing; they make it sound so inviting. Knew a friend at UCO who use to brew his own beer and bottle it. Many times he invited me to his car for a cold one between many classes (we shared an open hour in between). Myself, I'd be afraid to attempt anything like this for fear that I might just poison a group of people--myself included.

Recall attending a funeral in Texas where everyone was invited to a dinner following the funeral. Someone didn't know the canning process (botulism)--several people got sick (one died). Had to return the next week for another funeral.

Just wish I had time to do more research. It's more complicated than most of us think--at least I can point this finger at myself.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
Nope. It's as simple as it sounds. They dilute it by adding water to it. They also bake off some of the alcohol by adding heat to the process. 3.2 is an ABW measurement rather than ABV, which is closer to 4.0 on those beers.

Considering most of the product in question is watery low-point lager to begin with, the 3.2 product is not THAT far from full-strength. Evaporate some alcohol, add some water, and *presto*, 3.2 beer.

Some beers instead use reverse osmosis, where beers are run through filters that only allow water and alcohol to pass, the alcohol is removed, and the water is re-introduced. Essentially a dehydration/rehydration process. But most 3.2 beers are in fact...literally watered down.

[Laramie]

AB doesn't sell their regular products in Oklahoma but I don't think it has anything to do with refrigeration. I believe it has more to do with them not wanting to go through the distribution system. They can be their own distributor of 3.2 beer, which is why they are opposing this law. They don't want to play by the same rules as other brewers in this state have to.

It's New Belgium that doesn't sell in Oklahoma due to refrigeration but word is that's about to change.

The weight vs. volume and strong beer vs. the 3.2 probably isn't that big of an issue.

bchris02, got to give it up to you--beginning to see your point.

[bille]

Yet amazing we sell tons of IPA's in Oklahoma. And I know of way to many distributors (in so called cold states) and wholesalers who do not store packaged beer cold. Kegs yes, but not the cans and bottles beer. And talk to a swamper some time and find out how warm that beer gets.

At a liquor store, the turn for most beers is 3-5 days, if proper inventory management is followed. The exception being special buys. The amount of time the beer is sitting at liquor stores is too short to have any discernible effect.

Refrigeration isn't the reason a certain beer isn't in Oklahoma. It's money, production capacity, lack of a distribution agreement, or lack of demand. If there's money to be made here, a brewer will sell here. And when they claim it's about refrigeration, that's bunk, because they all sell into pipelines where the beer doesn't stay cold. The only way to avoid that is to self distribute like AB, but even those you see beer in stacks at the retail level outside of the cooler.

And on the extreme cases where freshness is so important, it's as much about geography. I can't see a brewer in Oklahoma who produces such a fragile IPA selling it in say NYC just because of the transport time. The same reason many of the fine small batch beers wouldn't want to ship their beers oversees.

The reason we sell tons of IPA is because it's the number one style and that is the demand, however it doesn't change the fact that the beer isn't as fresh as it could be. IPA isn't the only beer style that will benefit greatly from refrigeration, just the style that will benefit the most.

^^^^^^^^
Nope. It's as simple as it sounds. They dilute it by adding water to it. They also bake off some of the alcohol by adding heat to the process. 3.2 is an ABW measurement rather than ABV, which is closer to 4.0 on those beers.

Considering most of the product in question is watery low-point lager to begin with, the 3.2 product is not THAT far from full-strength. Evaporate some alcohol, add some water, and *presto*, 3.2 beer.

Some beers instead use reverse osmosis, where beers are run through filters that only allow water and alcohol to pass, the alcohol is removed, and the water is re-introduced. Essentially a dehydration/rehydration process. But most 3.2 beers are in fact...literally watered down.

That's pretty interesting, I've never heard the process described that way before. The way I've heard they (the macro brewers) brew their beer is that they make a high gravity (higher alcohol) beer, say 7ish percent, and then dilute it down to the strength they need. This method allows them to make more beer as well being able to be more consistent. The process you described seems overly complex which is why I tend to believe for repeatability they are more likely to use a process like I mentioned.

As far as brewing beer at home it's really not that hard at all. There are things to keep in mind and the incidences with botulism although important (and scary) it's not really a concern if you practice common sense in your brewing. If anybody here is interested in learning homebrewing feel free to post up or send me a pm. I've taught several classes (did a briefing at the south okc library this past week actually) and many of my friends are teaching classes either at Learn to Brew in Moore or over at The Brew Shop in okc. It's an extremely fun and addicting hobby but at the same time it's not for everybody.

[barrettd]

Looks like AB will quit their propaganda campaign against SJR68.

Anheuser-Busch warms up to Oklahoma liquor reforms proposal

[onthestrip]

Forget AB, this seems to be this biggest problem with Jolley's bill. Why does it have to have any new language on the regular liquor distributors? Is this to appease the big 2 distributors in this state and prevent them from campaigning against this? History tells us that if we have less competition, we will see price increases. Im sure thats what will happen when there are only 2 distributors left in this state.

BOTTLED UP | News OK

[jerrywall]

I think part of the incentive (or pretty much all of it) is to help out Wal-Mart and other large retail chains. They don't want to have to order from 7 distributors to get the volume of products they'll need, so with this one or two distributors could have control of the more popular products (such as Yellow Tail, Sutter Home, etc). It would also make it easier for them to buy up all the supply of limited availability products.

[barrettd]

I am not real familiar with how the distribution system works, but why should anyone be forced to sell their product to a distributor? Especially if that distributor only serves one retail store, like Byron's?

[jerrywall]

There's not a distributor that serves a single store. Byron's is Sterling's largest customer, but any other liquor store or bar can purchase from them. We did quite regularly when we had our shop.

But think about if they did? So Distributor A signs an exclusive distribution agreement on a certain beer or wine, and then only sells it to a single retailer. Nice way to control prices.

[David]

Double post.

[David]

I am not real familiar with how the distribution system works, but why should anyone be forced to sell their product to a distributor? Especially if that distributor only serves one retail store, like Byron's?

For some reason that is how alcohol distribution works nationwide: Three-tier system (alcohol distribution). Why? I dunno, but this isn't something Jolley's bill is specifically making up just for Oklahoma.

In related news: https://twitter.com/briOKC/status/704776817119350789

SJR68 clears senate floor , 28 to 16 must still go to House

[TheTravellers]

I think part of the incentive (or pretty much all of it) is to help out Wal-Mart and other large retail chains. They don't want to have to order from 7 distributors to get the volume of products they'll need, so with this one or two distributors could have control of the more popular products (such as Yellow Tail, Sutter Home, etc). It would also make it easier for them to buy up all the supply of limited availability products.

I know you're not advocating for it, wanted to head that off at the pass.

Too damn bad for Wal-Mart, whhhhaaaaaaa, what regular citizen would even care if it makes it easier for Wal-Mart to do what they do... Screw Wal-Mart (and other large retail chains), let them fill out 7 forms instead of 1 or 2, just hire another low-wage worker to do it.

[FighttheGoodFight]

For some reason that is how alcohol distribution works nationwide: Three-tier system (alcohol distribution). Why? I dunno, but this isn't something Jolley's bill is specifically making up just for Oklahoma.

In related news: https://twitter.com/briOKC/status/704776817119350789

Retail association said senators just voted to put 100s of people out of work. Interesting.

[Uptowner]

Lol

[bille]

Retail association said senators just voted to put 100s of people out of work. Interesting.

They claim that an unlimited number of grocer and convenience stores carrying single-strength beer and wine will push many stores out of business and that's certainly going to happen. RLAO wants to curb as much of the small shops going under by capping licenses that allows wine sales. IIRC everybody would have ability to carry beer but wine would be sold on a limited license basis.

[jerrywall]

There's evidence to support their claims of significant numbers of stores going under. I look forward to having to drive an extra ten miles to find the beer I want. But in exchange I can buy crap wine at the grocery. I love that trade off!

[TheTravellers]

There's evidence to support their claims of significant numbers of stores going under. I look forward to having to drive an extra ten miles to find the beer I want. But in exchange I can buy crap wine at the grocery. I love that trade off!

Don't know how it's going to work here, but in IL and WA (from 1996-2009), I was able to find almost any beer I wanted (Dogfish Head, New Belgium, Pyramid, other small/craft brewers, etc., I wasn't into the small-batch, case-at-a-time brewers that only released stuff at one store for one day, and still am really not too much into that whole super-limited thing, just too much trouble most of the time) at almost any place I went to. Anecdotal, yeah, and their systems had already been in place a while, so they may have already had "significant numbers of stores going under" and recovered from that, but I didn't have any problems in the almost 15 years I was buying beer and wine out of OK.

[bradh]

Most of the stores that will go under likely are the crap places anyway that likely don't have the selection most want. I already pass two closer liqour stores in my 2.5 mile drive to my place of choice.

[jerrywall]

But there's no upside compared to the proposal the RLAO has put out, and their bill doesn't have the hidden gifts to Walmart and Budweiser in it.

[jerrywall]

Most of the stores that will go under likely are the crap places anyway that likely don't have the selection most want. I already pass two closer liqour stores in my 2.5 mile drive to my place of choice.

And when that one goes away?