Oklahoma liquor laws

[Uptowner]

Oh, as a low info simpleton, I finally see what AB is talking about when it said in its ad the price of beer would go up. An 18 pack priced at $14.00 would become $15.89. There would be no more $2-2.50 beer by the bottle in Stillwater bars. So make the tax on 6 point beer the same as 3.2 beer. Oh, that is too much to ask for in this revenue starved state. Republicans realize a well amped up source of revenue. So divert it to education, and forget about a 1 cent rise in state sales tax.

But! They set their own price. Which is quite higher vs other mass produced beers like pabst, lone star, or hamms. They're making up extra profits where they're not paying taxes.

[jerrywall]

We should tax 3.2 beer the same as liquor, although it's not some revenue bonanza some would hope for. 3.2 beer is taxed at $.36 per gallon, or about 20 cents per six pack. Higher alcohol beer, wine, and liquor are taxed at rates between one-half and two cents per ounce. Liquor tax revenues are less than $100 million a year. While the money is nice, it's a relative drop in the bucket to the state revenue.

I doubt InBev cares about the taxes as those would just be added to the price of the product. What they do care about is merchandizing and display of their products. 3.2 beer, since it's not liquor, doesn't fall under the rules which don't allow shelf space agreements, nor for brewers to set up displays, or for special or volume pricing (all Oklahoma retailers pay the same price for liquor products regardless of size).

InBev works with about 500 distributors nationwide, so their claims that they need to be able to self distribute in Oklahoma are bunk. And they're so eager to keep the craft market from taking over, they'd take a hit in Oklahoma just to keep from ceding this state to its competitors.

And, considering how many InBev products ARE distributed to liquor stores via the traditional tiered system, that just puts the lie to further rest that InBev couldn't function in that system.

[onthestrip]

So Im hearing that Jolley's bill will further consolidate wholesalers? Is this true? If so, why and how would it allow less competition for wholesalers? This wouldnt be good for consumers and pricing and this may be one big issue with this bill. Maybe someone can explain.

[jerrywall]

Oklahoma liquor store owners start push for state question on alcohol laws | News OK

Highlights include:
* Cold, strong beer sold in every outlet that currently sells any strength of beer, including grocery and convenience stores.
* Grocery store wine licenses to allow both locally-owned and chain grocery stores to sell wine.
* Oklahoma breweries could distribute their products directly to Oklahoma retail package stores.
* Oklahoma breweries could serve and sell their product at their own facilities, regardless of ABV.
* Liquor stores could hold tastings inside their store.
* Retail package stores could sell any and all items sold in a grocery store with some restriction.

[jerrywall]

I haven't seen the actual language, so I'm taking info from the RLAO PR and talking points. However, the things I like and felt were missing from the other proposal...

1. Oklahoma breweries distributing products directly to liquor stores. YAY!
2. Oklahoma breweries serving and selling their products at their own facilities. YAY!

These two would immensely help our craft brew industry, as well as invite more brewpub creation, and levels the field with Oklahoma wineries.

3. Liquor store tastings. YAY! Another good benefit. I have questions about logistics, but still, this could be good.

Still wish either proposal addressed children in liquor stores, hours, Sundays and Holidays, but none of those are personal "critical" issues for me. I'd also like to have out of state products shipped directly to the consumer.

[barrettd]

Still wish either proposal addressed children in liquor stores, hours, Sundays and Holidays, but none of those are personal "critical" issues for me. I'd also like to have out of state products shipped directly to the consumer.

Yeah, but it will help to be able to grab beer/wine at the grocery store when I've got the kids.

[Bunty]

Will liquor stores have the petition to sign when it's released? Otherwise, how are people going to sign it?

[bille]

I should clarify that I only agreed with this part of jerrywall's last post



I took that as meaning not local brewers but many of the out of state ones we clamor for.

The current laws inhibit both local craft expansion as well as other breweries expanding into our market. At the very least it offers them an excuse to choose not to come to OK until they are good and ready.

I recall them saying (number of years ago) that if one more state did away with 3.2 beer--they would stop producing it. Those 6-8 states that sell it would be out of luck.

I don't recall AB saying this but I do recall an article last year discussing how the other states where watching what OK was doing with its 3.2 law and that if one state were to do away with it and go to single-strength chances were probable the other 3.2 states would follow suite.

I haven't seen the actual language, so I'm taking info from the RLAO PR and talking points. However, the things I like and felt were missing from the other proposal...

1. Oklahoma breweries distributing products directly to liquor stores. YAY!
2. Oklahoma breweries serving and selling their products at their own facilities. YAY!

These two would immensely help our craft brew industry, as well as invite more brewpub creation, and levels the field with Oklahoma wineries.

3. Liquor store tastings. YAY! Another good benefit. I have questions about logistics, but still, this could be good.

Still wish either proposal addressed children in liquor stores, hours, Sundays and Holidays, but none of those are personal "critical" issues for me. I'd also like to have out of state products shipped directly to the consumer.

I'm pretty sure 1 and 2 are covered in the SJR.

[jerrywall]

Are they? Maybe 1, although I'm not sure and if so it seems to be limited, and I don't see #2 at all. Maybe I'm missing something?

[jerrywall]

... other breweries expanding into our market. At the very least it offers them an excuse to choose not to come to OK until they are good and ready.

And they are BS excuses. People don't come into the market because of capacity, finances, or such. Nothing at all to do with a law. There is not a single law in Oklahoma that's unique that would deter expansion into this market.

If any beer brewer wants to blame refrigeration, that just tells me they make crappy, pissy, beer.

[bille]

Are they? Maybe 1, although I'm not sure and if so it seems to be limited, and I don't see #2 at all. Maybe I'm missing something?

I'll be honest, I haven't bothered with trying to decipher it in going based off of what's been presented and told to me. As soon as I can find where the sources I trust have distinguished this I'll post it here (if you care).

[bille]

If any beer brewer wants to blame refrigeration, that just tells me they make crappy, pissy, beer.

Here's where I'll disagree with you until the end of time. Refrigeration absolutely matters and if you were a brewer or familiar with how beer is brewed and how it ages you'd understand this too.

[jerrywall]

Here's where I'll disagree with you until the end of time. Refrigeration absolutely matters and if you were a brewer or familiar with how beer is brewed and how it ages you'd understand this too.

I am a brewer (albeit amateur) of 15 years and also owned a liquor store for a decade, and I still maintain it doesn't. Light kills beer, and extreme temperatures kills beer. If refrigeration mattered we'd be screwed because there isn't a single beer that remains refrigerated from brewing to consumption.

Refrigeration matters for certain beers for long term storage. But even New Belgium, who tries to claim refrigeration is that important, sells beer in Utah... where.. guess what? If a retailer has inventory sitting around long enough for refrigeration to matter, that's a problem, but most likely they'll have skunking from the light first.

Now some beers lose their flavor and such in 3-6 months, and refrigeration can extend that, but again, no retailer should be sitting on product for anywhere near that long (nor a distributor/wholesaler).

And then there are crappy watered down domestic lagers which have no resistance to temperature. They're also the ones they want you to drink "ice cold" so you don't taste how bad they are. Hence "crappy, pissy, beer."

[ctchandler]

Here's where I'll disagree with you until the end of time. Refrigeration absolutely matters and if you were a brewer or familiar with how beer is brewed and how it ages you'd understand this too.

Bille,
Do you consider 56-57 degree beer "refrigerated"? Well, that's a trick question because some of the best beer I have enjoyed sits in pubs in Great Britain. It's called cask ale and is pumped/drawn (physically) into your glass. Generally, it's 56 degrees, but it varies because the beer is kept below ground. It doesn't have any refrigeration but is cooler (some incorrectly call it warm beer, but 56 degrees is not warm) due to being kept below ground level. I have always heard that American beer needs to be very cold because of the taste, and I will admit, I have taken a swallow of a "domestic" beer that was a long way from ice cold and I spit it out because it didn't taste very good.
C. T.

[bille]

I had to go back to page 4 to find where I addressed refrigeration and beer staling, it's here if you want to read it: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010. http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...tml#post701934

cliffnotes: beer stales/oxidizes at a rate twice as fast for every 18 degrees F. "cellar" temps at 50-55F would stale twice as fast as being stored near freezing and room temp would stale at ~4 times as fast. I agree some beers react much differently to temperatures but it cannot be denied that it has an affect, ESPECIALLY for the most popular beer style, IPA.

[ctchandler]

Bille,
If I read your comment about IPA correctly, you are saying heat has more impact on them than others. If I misunderstood, I apologize, but IPAs came about because beer moved between Great Britain and India tended to go bad due to the distance and temperature since they didn't have refrigeration then, so more hops were added, creating the IPA that was able to survive the distance/time/temperature while being shipped from Great Britain to India. I'm no beer expert, so I don't have a clue about a lot of the processes but that's what I was told when I was in Great Britain. It may not be fact, but that's how I understand it.
C. T.

I am definitely not an expert, I have heard things, especially in England, but who knows whether they knew what they were talking about or not. Just enjoying a conversation about one of my favorite subjects.

[Uptowner]

Bille,
If I read your comment about IPA correctly, you are saying heat has more impact on them than others. If I misunderstood, I apologize, but IPAs came about because beer moved between Great Britain and India tended to go bad due to the distance and temperature since they didn't have refrigeration then, so more hops were added, creating the IPA that was able to survive the distance/time/temperature while being shipped from Great Britain to India. I'm no beer expert, so I don't have a clue about a lot of the processes but that's what I was told when I was in Great Britain. It may not be fact, but that's how I understand it.
C. T.

I am definitely not an expert, I have heard things, especially in England, but who knows whether they knew what they were talking about or not. Just enjoying a conversation about one of my favorite subjects.

I also spend a lot of time in UK and the temperature of beer stays low because it's always cold there. It doesn't sit in a 72 degree liquor store. It sits in a climate controlled 50 degree "cellar." Since the 70's pubs have had refridgeration to keep that "cellar" temperature. And in even more cases modern systems (in the classic pubs) keep beer "ice" cold and actually use heat exchanger in the hand pumps to warm the ales when they hit the glass so the more popular lagers can stay cold.

The ales stay fresh because the rate of consumption in that country is INSANE. Once a 20 liter cask ale is tapped it's almost always gone within 3 days. A cask ale exposed to atmosphere has 4-5 days maximum, and only if kept at "cellar" temperature.

And as to IPA's it's definitely cool in the Indian oceans down in the cargo hold. So the temp wasn't a factor. The hops were added as a preservative.

[jerrywall]

I had to go back to page 4 to find where I addressed refrigeration and beer staling, it's here if you want to read it: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010. http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...tml#post701934

cliffnotes: beer stales/oxidizes at a rate twice as fast for every 18 degrees F. "cellar" temps at 50-55F would stale twice as fast as being stored near freezing and room temp would stale at ~4 times as fast. I agree some beers react much differently to temperatures but it cannot be denied that it has an affect, ESPECIALLY for the most popular beer style, IPA.

But you're talking about long term storage. I'm talking about refrigeration as an effect on the retail side (and it's use as an excuse to not distribute here). Cellaring, yeah, temperature makes a difference as it affects the life span (as I mentioned as well).

[bille]

Bille,
If I read your comment about IPA correctly, you are saying heat has more impact on them than others. If I misunderstood, I apologize, but IPAs came about because beer moved between Great Britain and India tended to go bad due to the distance and temperature since they didn't have refrigeration then, so more hops were added, creating the IPA that was able to survive the distance/time/temperature while being shipped from Great Britain to India. I'm no beer expert, so I don't have a clue about a lot of the processes but that's what I was told when I was in Great Britain. It may not be fact, but that's how I understand it.
C. T.

I am definitely not an expert, I have heard things, especially in England, but who knows whether they knew what they were talking about or not. Just enjoying a conversation about one of my favorite subjects.

I also spend a lot of time in UK and the temperature of beer stays low because it's always cold there. It doesn't sit in a 72 degree liquor store. It sits in a climate controlled 50 degree "cellar." Since the 70's pubs have had refridgeration to keep that "cellar" temperature. And in even more cases modern systems (in the classic pubs) keep beer "ice" cold and actually use heat exchanger in the hand pumps to warm the ales when they hit the glass so the more popular lagers can stay cold.

The ales stay fresh because the rate of consumption in that country is INSANE. Once a 20 liter cask ale is tapped it's almost always gone within 3 days. A cask ale exposed to atmosphere has 4-5 days maximum, and only if kept at "cellar" temperature.

And as to IPA's it's definitely cool in the Indian oceans down in the cargo hold. So the temp wasn't a factor. The hops were added as a preservative.

I should have put emphasis on American IPA, a wildly different animal than the English varieties. We could have a great discussion on IPA history, I learned a lot about the style, it's history, as well as debunking some old myths.

But you're talking about long term storage. I'm talking about refrigeration as an effect on the retail side (and it's use as an excuse to not distribute here). Cellaring, yeah, temperature makes a difference as it affects the life span (as I mentioned as well).

No sir, I'm talking in general...I'm talking cold storage immediately after packaging. I'm talking about a beer changing significantly at a months age in package, not just long-term.

[bille]

It's no coincidence that all of the best IPAs coming from smaller breweries are only available at the brewery or in a very limited number of retail stores. Freshness is *everything* with these beers. A Julius that went through the current Oklahoma distribution system would def not be the same

Tony is the co-owner/head brewer at Roughtail. This quote was in regards to a discussion about popular IPAs.

[jerrywall]

Yet amazing we sell tons of IPA's in Oklahoma. And I know of way to many distributors (in so called cold states) and wholesalers who do not store packaged beer cold. Kegs yes, but not the cans and bottles beer. And talk to a swamper some time and find out how warm that beer gets.

At a liquor store, the turn for most beers is 3-5 days, if proper inventory management is followed. The exception being special buys. The amount of time the beer is sitting at liquor stores is too short to have any discernible effect.

Refrigeration isn't the reason a certain beer isn't in Oklahoma. It's money, production capacity, lack of a distribution agreement, or lack of demand. If there's money to be made here, a brewer will sell here. And when they claim it's about refrigeration, that's bunk, because they all sell into pipelines where the beer doesn't stay cold. The only way to avoid that is to self distribute like AB, but even those you see beer in stacks at the retail level outside of the cooler.

And on the extreme cases where freshness is so important, it's as much about geography. I can't see a brewer in Oklahoma who produces such a fragile IPA selling it in say NYC just because of the transport time. The same reason many of the fine small batch beers wouldn't want to ship their beers oversees.

[jerrywall]

Tony is the co-owner/head brewer at Roughtail. This quote was in regards to a discussion about popular IPAs.

How could they even be in the limited number of retail stores then? It seems the problem is at the distribution level, not the retail level.

[SouthsideSooner]

This link takes you to the initiative petition that's been filed by the liquor retailers association...

Http://www.sos.ok.gov/documents/questions/785.pdf

[jerrywall]

On a side note (cause this isn't really a law issue)... Rahr & Sons expands into Oklahoma next week. For those who've never had them, they're one of the larger craft brewers in Texas, and have won quite a few awards. A bunch of places will be doing launch events next week (the usual suspects - The Patriarch, Skinny Slims, Oak and Oar, etc).

[ctchandler]

And in even more cases modern systems (in the classic pubs) keep beer "ice" cold and actually use heat exchanger in the hand pumps to warm the ales when they hit the glass so the more popular lagers can stay cold.

Uptowner,
There are eleven pubs within one mile of my friends house, and the cask ale is subterranean and the other beers are refrigerated like any normal American bar and they are not subterranean. I have been all over England, Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall (as well as Ireland, but little or no cask ale there), and If you spend some time in London, most pubs do not have cask ale because they were not built with the subterranean facility. I believe that's because of their proximity to the Thames, but I might be wrong. I have also enjoyed cask ale at pubs that have the "casks" or kegs lying on their sides on a shelf above bar level, they are not as cool as those that are in the cellar, but still quite good. I don't remember seeing any pubs in London that used this method. I suspect that the term "warm beer" came from this style of storing the kegs. One of should start another thread to talk about various styles of beer since this one was meant to be about Oklahoma's liquor laws. Oh well, if somebody tells me to shut up, I will.
C. T.