Streetcar

[betts]

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/547...rlyAccess=true

Since Brookville cars are more expensive than Inekon cars, and we will need 6 cars instead of 5 for the expanded route, yes they will cost more money. The "as expected, drive up costs" line written prior to the explanation below gives the article a negative slant. Where are the "buy American" promoters now? When we were hearing that rallying cry, no one was talking about the fact that Brookville cars are slightly more expensive than Inekon cars.

[Laramie]

I think Kansas City's street car system (under construction) has a system length 2 mi (3.2 km) with future expansion planned.

Impressed that OKC is willing to start with an initial system length roughly 7 miles; this will give us some good options for expansion. Transit could really take off from this point which could be a precursor to commuter rail (high speed) into Edmond and/or Norman.

We will join the Portland, Seattle, Denver, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Houston and other Big League Cities with some kind of rail transportation. This will definitely be a feather in our cap especially with tourist. Now that convention center & conference hotel along with the streetcar could attract some developers wanting to invest in parcels along the routes served by the streetcar--really, really neat...

[Urban Pioneer]

OKC deal with streetcar manufacturer puts tram plans into motion — for a cost



Brookville Equipment Corp.'s rendering of how one of its Liberty streetcars would look in service in Oklahoma City.
[Provided by Brookville Equipment Corp.


by William Crum Published: February 19, 2016 Updated: 12 hours ago


A new contract for the MAPS 3 streetcars would preserve plans to begin service in mid-2018 but, as expected, drive up costs for the multimillion-dollar trams.

Oklahoma City finalized a contract this week with Brookville Equipment Corp., of Brookville, Pa. The company's president, Marion H. Van Fosson, signed the 48-page agreement Tuesday.

Total cost for five of Brookville's Liberty streetcars is $24.9 million. Czech company Inekon Group had offered to build five of its Trio streetcars for $23 million. The city council approved a contract with Inekon last year but turned to Brookville, which finished second in the evaluation of manufacturers, after Inekon failed to produce required financial guarantees.

The city council still must approve the contract with Brookville. An added wrinkle is that the city now plans to buy six streetcars.

If the contract wins approval and the city gives Brookville the go-ahead to begin work by April 1, the first streetcar would be scheduled to arrive by Oct. 1, 2017. Others would arrive monthly between about Feb. 1 and May 1, 2018.

The contract provides for the city to order a sixth car, which presumably could be delivered in the summer of 2018, about when service is to begin. Plans are to begin construction of a maintenance facility and begin laying rails this year.

Powered by electricity from overhead wires and batteries, the MAPS 3 “modern” streetcars will run on rails embedded in the streets, sharing the road with cars and buses. One goal is for streetcars to run on batteries, or “off-wire,” on substantial parts of the downtown route.

Brookville has two Liberty models in service in Dallas, with two more on order. The company also is supplying streetcars for Detroit and Milwaukee.

Brookville's price is $4.8 million each for the first five streetcars and $4 million for the sixth. Oklahoma City will spend up to $900,000 for spare parts, bringing the cost for its six Liberty streetcars to $28.9 million.

As with the previous Inekon contract, the Brookville agreement requires a two-year warranty on batteries. Streetcar frames will be warranted for 10 years and traction motors for four years.

The city council voted Tuesday for a revised route, designed specifically to serve the convention center complex to be built south of Chesapeake Energy Arena. The revision requires a sixth streetcar to provide acceptable service, consultants said. Plans had been for a 4.6-mile loop through the central business district, linking Midtown and Bricktown.

That route would have gone past the city's preferred convention center site, west of the arena. Plans began to change about a year ago, when efforts to acquire the preferred site collapsed.

Once the city council shifted to the new site, south of the arena along Robinson Avenue, consultants drew up options for a streetcar route to serve the convention center. The council settled on a route this week that will have streetcars travel along the new Oklahoma City Boulevard, which will follow the alignment of the old Interstate 40 through downtown.

Streetcars will stop near the convention center and MAPS 3 downtown park. Shifting the route south from Reno Avenue also is expected to support residential and commercial development in the now-blighted district west of the new park. Reconfiguring the route and adding a third of a mile of track preserves the main-line loop through the central business district, now the “blue line,” while creating a “red line” with direct service between the convention center to Bricktown. Total “service” length on the two lines will be 6.9 miles.

Consultants said the revised route would offer flexibility for frequent service — every seven minutes — to the convention center. Streetcars to handle downtown crowds attending events could be added. By doing a better job of serving municipal parking garages, they said, the revised route would offer a “park once” option for riders who choose to park downtown then ride the streetcar to a range of destinations.


Link to article- OKC deal with streetcar manufacturer puts tram plans into motion ? for a cost | News OK

[LakeEffect]

We can't post entire Oklahoman articles here, can we?

[Buffalo Bill]

Where are the "buy American" promoters now? When we were hearing that rallying cry, no one was talking about the fact that Brookville cars are slightly more expensive than Inekon cars.

Maybe it's a moot point since Brookville seems to be the only company willing to actually sell us cars.

[betts]

Maybe it's a moot point since Brookville seems to be the only company willing to actually sell us cars.

INEKON and Brookville were the two lowest bids, but not the only bidders

[Buffalo Bill]

INEKON and Brookville were the two lowest bids, but not the only bidders

..and one refuses to sell their cars. So why is there a problem?

[BoulderSooner]

..and one refuses to sell their cars. So why is there a problem?

That is a massive oversimplification at best Mostly not true.

[soonerguru]

Not making light of 1.9 million, but the Joke makes it seem like a huge increase in cost.

[Laramie]

Regional Transit Authority (RTA):

As area cities finalize upcoming budgets, a total of $511,000 has been committed from Oklahoma City, Norman, Edmond, Del City, Midwest City and Moore. Another $584,000 in federal funds has also been committed.

Legislation passed last year will allow the RTA to draw taxing boundaries by precincts closest to the proposed rail lines, which is believed to increase the likelihood of voter approval. Oklahoma City’s redevelopment of Santa Fe Depot into a multi-transit hub was another key step, ACOG officials said. Public support for regional transit from the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce last year was also seen as a milestone.

A proposed regional transit system would connect Norman and Edmond with downtown Oklahoma City via commuter rail. Streetcars would also extend from downtown to Midwest City and Tinker Air Force Base to the east and north along Classen Avenue. --Oklahoma Gazette--Ben Felder, June 26, 2016.

OKC metro forms regional transit authority | Oklahoma Gazette

A support that includes the fastest going cities that border OKC in the metro. Santa Fe Depot will serve as an intermodal transit hub. Our terminal will eventually link all participating cities .

[betts]

Not making light of 1.9 million, but the Joke makes it seem like a huge increase in cost.

Yes, that was my point. Our rail bid came in 25% below budget, we're making a significant increase in coverage with the Bricktown loop, we're dropping head ways to 7 min on the Bricktown loop, we will now go to the park and convention center hotel and we're getting six cars instead of five. In transit terms, that's a huge bang for your $3 million buck. That would have been the focus of my opening paragraph. Someone forgot to send the DOK the memo: most of the opposition is now fully on board.

[bradh]

betts...you and the rest of the committee have done a great job

[d-usa]

Came across this today:

Revived Streetcars May Be On Track For Disappointment : NPR

[d-usa]

(double post)

I'm looking forward to our Streetcar and I'm very excited about us expanding our transit.

I wonder if the problems covered in the article are problems with scale. How long are the routes in the other cities?

[ljbab728]

Well, the proposal in New York is 16 miles and in many cases it's comparing apples to oranges. Every city and every proposal has different issues to address so it's not as easy to decide as the article implies.

[catch22]

I'm beginning to think Jarrett Walker has some financial interest in talking down streetcar. How can he live in Portland and honestly say streetcar is only a buzzword.

Every time I am downtown, the streetcar is completely packed to the gills with riders. I do agree that it can be slow, especially when it gets into the south waterfront where it zig zags several times, each turn slowing it down. But the rest of the system the streetcar zips along at a healthy pace and is much faster than walking.

[betts]

I'm beginning to think Jarrett Walker has some financial interest in talking down streetcar. How can he live in Portland and honestly say streetcar is only a buzzword.

Every time I am downtown, the streetcar is completely packed to the gills with riders. I do agree that it can be slow, especially when it gets into the south waterfront where it zig zags several times, each turn slowing it down. But the rest of the system the streetcar zips along at a healthy pace and is much faster than walking.

Jarrett Walker is very anti-streetcar. He is the person Ed Shadid brought as keynote speaker for a meeting that was very negative towards streetcars in general. However, when questions were asked of Walker, it was quite clear he knew very little about our streetcars plans, had no knowledge of how MAPS projects are financed, and knew nothing about the city and its transit needs or plans. So, I think it is safe to say that he can be counted on for an anti-streetcar quote, regardless of the circumstances.

[Spartan]

(double post)

I'm looking forward to our Streetcar and I'm very excited about us expanding our transit.

I wonder if the problems covered in the article are problems with scale. How long are the routes in the other cities?

They are typically very short routes and in addition, those cities that have had trouble actually deliberately sabotaged their systems by dropping frequencies to 20-30 minutes. I kid you not.

Folks like Jarrett Walker and Matthew Yglesias and Eric Jaffe don't care about their credibility, they just keep doing what they can to discredit streetcars, and they will be supported by interests that don't want urban revitalization. There is a pretty powerful block of interests that want to keep cities retro-grade.. they include anti-gentrification people, suburban exclusionary protectionists, bus advocates, parking operators, and others. They are all aligned against this mixed-use, mixed-income future that we're moving towards, because they refuse to see it working out for themselves.

It's time that we stop expecting these people to make a positive contribution on how to improve cities.

[LakeEffect]

They are typically very short routes and in addition, those cities that have had trouble actually deliberately sabotaged their systems by dropping frequencies to 20-30 minutes. I kid you not.

Folks like Jarrett Walker and Matthew Yglesias and Eric Jaffe don't care about their credibility, they just keep doing what they can to discredit streetcars, and they will be supported by interests that don't want urban revitalization. There is a pretty powerful block of interests that want to keep cities retro-grade.. they include anti-gentrification people, suburban exclusionary protectionists, bus advocates, parking operators, and others. They are all aligned against this mixed-use, mixed-income future that we're moving towards, because they refuse to see it working out for themselves.

It's time that we stop expecting these people to make a positive contribution on how to improve cities.

I don't think they strive all they can do discredit streetcar, but they do approach things with a specific bias. Jarrett full on wants all modes of public transit to be transportation first. Streetcars, especially mixed traffic ones, are slower and those in looped systems don't provide a maximum transport benefit to the entire community. Therefore, a streetcar would be bad under his assumption. Yglesias and Jaffe primarily point out the faults of mixed traffic routes for generally similar complaints - not much transportation benefit. However, they all tend to ignore the other benefits of streetcar, even mixed traffic ones, specifically the economic development portion. Bus routes do not have the economic development impact that streetcars do - possibly except for a BRT route w/ dedicated lanes and rail-like stations...

[LakeEffect]

It's time that we stop expecting these people to make a positive contribution on how to improve cities.

Jarrett is making large positive contributions in the bus route world however - you can't ignore the success of his recent efforts in Houston. I just wish he'd acknowledge that all systems can work together, not necessarily one over the other.

[Urban Pioneer]

Jarrett Walker is very anti-streetcar. He is the person Ed Shadid brought as keynote speaker for a meeting that was very negative towards streetcars in general. However, when questions were asked of Walker, it was quite clear he knew very little about our streetcars plans, had no knowledge of how MAPS projects are financed, and knew nothing about the city and its transit needs or plans. So, I think it is safe to say that he can be counted on for an anti-streetcar quote, regardless of the circumstances.

I got to have breakfast with Walker at the Skirvin before that "Public Forum". Let's just say that he was much more reserved about it after our meeting as I got to have time with him explaining how it fitted in the broader Regional Transit System framework.

It was Ed that was became very negative about the streetcar in the meeting. He uses, or at least has used the MAPS 3 streetcar to contrast against our underfunded bus system. This caused quite a rift between us because I am just as big an advocate for properly funding our bus system. We have both moved on though. We both want to see the streetcar be a successful form of public transit.

I am in agreement with Jarrett Walker and many of the current critics of streetcar systems on many of their points. To properly function, signal preemption is almost a complete requirement in lieu of dedicated right-of-ways.

Our planned system twists and turns to connect all of the districts and major points together. I think for our system to function properly and be successful, we are going to have to force signal preemption mechanisms to be integrated into our design despite what the consultants might say.

[Spartan]

I don't think they strive all they can do discredit streetcar, but they do approach things with a specific bias. Jarrett full on wants all modes of public transit to be transportation first. Streetcars, especially mixed traffic ones, are slower and those in looped systems don't provide a maximum transport benefit to the entire community. Therefore, a streetcar would be bad under his assumption. Yglesias and Jaffe primarily point out the faults of mixed traffic routes for generally similar complaints - not much transportation benefit. However, they all tend to ignore the other benefits of streetcar, even mixed traffic ones, specifically the economic development portion. Bus routes do not have the economic development impact that streetcars do - possibly except for a BRT route w/ dedicated lanes and rail-like stations...

Here's a typical hit piece from Eric..

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit - CityLab

Attacking the ability of streetcars to provide reliable service because the cities that built them happened to settle on low frequencies. Except he presents it as if the user instructions from Inekon said "operate no less than 20 minute headways."

In Cincinnati there is a big battle between the grassroots streetcar supporters and the anti-streetcar mayor, where supporters want the system to run with good frequencies, and the mayor whose entire legacy hinges on destroying the streetcar is offering "friendly advice" to not go too overboard with the service intervals. Jaffe could have highlighted that struggle, but instead ignored that and used the service interval / frequencies / headways debate to throw ALL streetcars under the bus.

Richard Florida clearly isn't teaching his minions how to use logic models, so I do think you gotta stop taking someone seriously once you catch them being intellectually dishonest. There is a reason that these guys are earning a very bad reputation. Pretty much the entire planning academic establishment has washed their hands of Florida at this point.

I agree that we need it all. Gotta be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. As for Jarrett, I don't think he believes successful transit agencies need choice riders. At least he isn't seriously interested in that.

Yglesias... I don't even know where to begin in assessing his issues.

[gopokes88]

Came across this today:

Revived Streetcars May Be On Track For Disappointment : NPR

What's funny is the argument he uses against street car doesn't really apply to OKC.

The general consensus around this board is that streetcar will promote a more urban environment in OKC and the article basically states streetcars do exactly that.

[Urban Pioneer]

We approved the Brookville contract yesterday to head on to the oversight board this morning.

[Rover]

What's funny is the argument he uses against street car doesn't really apply to OKC.

The general consensus around this board is that streetcar will promote a more urban environment in OKC and the article basically states streetcars do exactly that.

So, is streetcar a transportation issue or a quality of life issue like the convention center is being argued here? Or does the city expect tangible benefits for the $ spent. Tangible for the city, not for property owners and developers on the route.