Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[ljbab728]

Just because it is endlessly repeated on this site that downtown is the most significant part of the city and that it is the one part shared by us all, doesn't mean it is true. This is an opinion not a fact.

That just depends on what your definition of significant is. I don't remember anyone using that word in describing downtown other than saying " It makes the city significantly more competitive for new business and new residents, as well as giving the city a stronger economy."

I don't know how you can argue realistically with that statement.

[SouthSide]

That is my point. it depends on the criteria selected By the way, I used the other poster's phrasing. Maps is a city wide tax. Shouldn't other parts of the city expect at some point to see some investment as well? How much is enough for the downtown area? .

[gopokes88]

Yes and no. I voted specifically for Stonecipher because the one 15 minute conversation I had with him I believed that he got that a strong core lifted the entire city, and he talked to me about he and his wife as ward 8 residents spent a lot of time in the inner city taking advantage of amenities down there that my wife and I also enjoyed.

Would I love some more stuff up here? Sure. However, I work down the street from the boathouses, and I love that all that stuff is right down the street from my work.

No, just yes.

People vote in their own self interest. You live in the most individualistic society in the history of the world. It's somewhat foolish to assume just because you were swayed everyone else was. If you want a maps 5, maps 4 needs to pass and right now the push behind is hey we've helped foot the bill we'd like some investment too.

[gopokes88]

Just because it is endlessly repeated on this site that downtown is the most significant part of the city and that it is the one part shared by us all, doesn't mean it is true. This is an opinion not a fact.

This site seems to think opinion and fact are like tomato tomato depending on what side of the fence you're on.

[mkjeeves]

This is ridiculous.

1) It is very much in their self-interest to have a strong core for the city. It makes the city significantly more competitive for new business and new residents, as well as giving the city a stronger economy.

2) While downtown is a small part of the city, area-wise, it is the single most significant part of the city. It is also the part that is shared by all of us.

Most of the jobs aren't downtown. Most of the people don't live downtown. Most of the tax base isn't downtown. Significant, yes. So is the tail on a dog.

[Pete]

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

[Just the facts]

What overarching public need is MAPS for Neighborhoods trying to address?

I see from the lasts few posts the objective is clearly to grease everyones hand. I am shocked to learn that the resident fake Republicans want their fair share of pork. Shocked I tell you - shocked. We build massive freeways for the suburbanites, miles and miles of streets, far-flung police and fire stations, expand water treatment facilities so they can have a yard, subsides their retail, live with earthquakes so they can drive 40 miles to work, bailout their automaker, live (or die) with pollution from cars, deal with abandonded properties as sprawl marches on, constantly build new schools because heaven forbid someone attend the same school as their parents, pay more for auto insurance because many of you suck at driving, dedicate large portions of the core to parking your vehicles, spend millions in interest on bonds so you can have all that NOW....and now you want MAPS dollars just to be fair. That takes some major chonies.

And I won't even mention the billions in taxpayer subsides that go to low wage employees so people living in +$300,000 houses can buy cheap junk at Walmart.

[warreng88]

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.

[jerrywall]

... blah blah blah I hate suburbanites and sprawl...

We get it.

[betts]

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.

[jerrywall]

Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.

As an Edmondnite, I disagree, if for no other reason we need to pay our share. I think a metro area transit authority fund is possible, and Norman and Edmond need to have a more direct funding input than just the occasional OKC sales tax.

[Spartan]

Actually, I would like to see all of MAPS 4 go to commuter rail. It will cost that much to create a line between Edmond and Norman. And, I think it will have a very salutory effect on neighborhoods near stops, stimulating significant private development at those "nodes". I would like to see our next bond issue address sidewalks. Just my opinion. I will likely vote for MAPS no matter what plans are proposed.

That's what I thought MAPS 4 was shaping up to be. So that's why I'm confused that Pete and Jonathan Dodson are trying to stir up some "MAPS 4 Neighborhoods" on the premise that it gets MAPS out of downtown. A train can leave downtown, too.

I'm not seeing anything in the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods program that shouldn't be done by a GO Bond. Maybe if we stopped using that funding mechanism to 4-lane every farm road between here and Kansas we would have a LOT of money to fix existing roads and build sidewalks WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED.

It still sounds like Pete wants to get a blank check for $62 million to Wards 8 and 5 which don't need it. "Oh no they will decide how they get to use it to meet some strategic goals and needs of that ward and don't you think they are deserving too?" So yes, a blank check for wards that don't need a dime of MAPS dollars.

I am sympathetic to the plight of getting something passed. The opposition to MAPS however, is not from the wealthiest in OKC. If anything, the opposition to MAPS is starting to come from the poorest in OKC. Actually pay attention to this and build a MAPS that's inclusive of those communities, and it will address the issue.

Keep in mind you have 5 mostly northside wards, and 3 southside wards, which is NOT proportional to who lives where (it really is half and half), and if we're going to make the ward boundaries the basis for MAPS dollars, then we are going to need fix the wards which would be biting off more than anyone can chew.

MAPS 4 Neighborhoods = Not This MAPS

[warreng88]

I wouldn't be opposed to a Maps 4 neighborhoods, but there needs to be a steering committee for each ward, with the city council person being only one vote of the committee.

In regards to rail from Edmond to OKC, Moore/Norman, do you think part of that could fall under the Bond vote as well as separate for an RTA or would it all be lumped in? They would have to pair this idea with bus system improvements and road improvements as those are going to be the main complaints if we start talking rail.

[bradh]

Maybe MAPS for Neighborhoods is too early? Maybe it's something that needs to be done after the RTA and commuter rail is set up, and then you can use that money to make the areas immediately around the stations (that are within OKC city limits) nice and attractive and not just parking lots where people come and go just to get on a train.

[Laramie]

Remember, fully half of MAPS 4 will still go to the traditional downtown-centered projects. $500 MM isn't much less than all of MAPS 3, which was $777 MM.

BTW, what are the downtown projects people want for MAPS 4?

Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.

We need a state of the art Aquatic Center, Soccer Stadium (downtown) and grandstand on the Oklahoma River.

OCCC has closed its aquatic center which served many area schools.

[Spartan]

Streetcar expansion, expand the Santa Fe station to hopefully include the current Cox Center, finish out the river improvements (wind screens, grandstands), Expand the canal, new, small soccer stadium capable of expansion.

In addition to streetcar expansion (I really hope we can do the whole Classen corridor and sync it on both ends, downtown and NW 63rd, with the OKGO commuter rail system), we will have a dire need for a new bus hub. It will be really important that someone could take the rail from anywhere downtown, along Classen, or Nichols Hills - and then transfer to an express bus or a local bus to go elsewhere.

It would be a small system still, but it would function really well. If you can find a way to use MAPS dollars (capital funding, not operational funding) to enhance the bus experience as well, you will do a major service to lower-income neighborhoods. That's the balance MAPS 4 will need, not more sidewalks and parks for Ward 8.

By the way - that 2008 GO Bond, disproportionately weighted toward areas north of Memorial Road, built new sidewalks whenever it widened a road to 4 lanes. So in REALITY Ward 8 already has the best sidewalks in the city, on every major road. And they didn't even have a need to begin with.

I am going to keep railing against some wards getting a dime of MAPS dollars because it's neither needed nor is it right.

[Just the facts]

Maybe MAPS for Neighborhoods is too early? Maybe it's something that needs to be done after the RTA and commuter rail is set up, and then you can use that money to make the areas immediately around the stations (that are within OKC city limits) nice and attractive and not just parking lots where people come and go just to get on a train.

When I first heard about MAPS for Neighborhoods I thought that is what they were going to do. I envisioned MAPS money being spent in Capitol Hill, Plaza District, Auto Alley, Paseo, 23rd Street, Midtown, Stockyard City, Western, Britton, etc....to revitalize the next ring of urban clusters and maybe create new ones where none exist. But that isn't what happened.

[Spartan]

^ That would make sense. A LOT of sense, and I would be the #1 advocate for that.

This is a neighborhood (CTP) that deserves MAPS support:


This is another neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:


This is NOT a neighborhood that deserves MAPS support:


This isn't difficult to figure out.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Maps 4 neighborhoods, but there needs to be a steering committee for each ward, with the city council person being only one vote of the committee.

In regards to rail from Edmond to OKC, Moore/Norman, do you think part of that could fall under the Bond vote as well as separate for an RTA or would it all be lumped in? They would have to pair this idea with bus system improvements and road improvements as those are going to be the main complaints if we start talking rail.

I'll say it again, Ward 8 and 5 shouldn't get a dime from MAPS, so no need for a steering committee. I wouldn't want to waste people's time.

I think we will need to figure out the tax for all of this. We're looking at a MAPS 4 penny sales tax extension, a NEW education sales tax (huh?), and an RTA tax on top of that. I think that MAPS and the RTA will need to find some way to nest the taxes into each other. In OKC, maybe there isn't an RTA tax if part of the MAPS tax goes to the OKGO system.

[bradh]

Well played fitting in Morning Woods entrance in...even though it's in Edmond

[hoya]

No, just yes.

People vote in their own self interest. You live in the most individualistic society in the history of the world. It's somewhat foolish to assume just because you were swayed everyone else was. If you want a maps 5, maps 4 needs to pass and right now the push behind is hey we've helped foot the bill we'd like some investment too.

MAPS won't continue forever. If you have to waste MAPS 4 to get to MAPS 5, why not just do the MAPS 5 stuff and end it?

[warreng88]

In addition to streetcar expansion (I really hope we can do the whole Classen corridor and sync it on both ends, downtown and NW 63rd, with the OKGO commuter rail system), we will have a dire need for a new bus hub. It will be really important that someone could take the rail from anywhere downtown, along Classen, or Nichols Hills - and then transfer to an express bus or a local bus to go elsewhere.

It would be a small system still, but it would function really well. If you can find a way to use MAPS dollars (capital funding, not operational funding) to enhance the bus experience as well, you will do a major service to lower-income neighborhoods. That's the balance MAPS 4 will need, not more sidewalks and parks for Ward 8.

By the way - that 2008 GO Bond, disproportionately weighted toward areas north of Memorial Road, built new sidewalks whenever it widened a road to 4 lanes. So in REALITY Ward 8 already has the best sidewalks in the city, on every major road. And they didn't even have a need to begin with.

I am going to keep railing against some wards getting a dime of MAPS dollars because it's neither needed nor is it right.

I am curious if there has ever been a proposal for smaller bus hubs in the city or other cities? I think the main turnoff for me is that I would have to take a bus all the way downtown to get back to where I want to go. What if there were three or four smaller hubs that had direct lines downtown and to the other hubs, but also better routes around that neighborhood? For example, put one at NW Expressway and MacArthur that better serves the NW area of OKC, but also has a direct line downtown and to another hub at Reno and Council. This would also cost more, which I am aware of, because there would be an increase in the amount of buses, as well as employees and infrastructure. just a thought.

[hoya]

The problem with "spreading the money around" is that you lose any ability to make real change. It's the same problem with people wanting to use MAPS money to fix roads. It's just not enough.

A strong core supports the entire city. Right now saying "downtown has had enough money" is like a 300 lb fat guy saying that the 25 situps he's done are enough and he deserves his ice cream now.

The best thing we could do is work on connecting downtown with the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. Stockyard City, Capitol Hill, JFK. We are hoping that downtown will achieve critical mass, and better connections with nearby people will hopefully speed that along, as well as causing those neighborhoods to improve as well.

I do agree that MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should probably follow the RTA.

[warreng88]

The problem with "spreading the money around" is that you lose any ability to make real change. It's the same problem with people wanting to use MAPS money to fix roads. It's just not enough.

A strong core supports the entire city. Right now saying "downtown has had enough money" is like a 300 lb fat guy saying that the 25 situps he's done are enough and he deserves his ice cream now.

The best thing we could do is work on connecting downtown with the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. Stockyard City, Capitol Hill, JFK. We are hoping that downtown will achieve critical mass, and better connections with nearby people will hopefully speed that along, as well as causing those neighborhoods to improve as well.

I do agree that MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should probably follow the RTA.

I think the problem you will run into with that is that if you leave out, say Paseo and Plaza districts and you add money to others, you might not get the votes of the majority since they see their money going somewhere else. Not saying I agree with it, but I could see others feeling that way.

[Pete]

Again, this is not an either/or proposition.

The idea is that $500MM would still go to the sexy core projects.

That's about the same that area received in MAPS 3.


And the bottom line is they aren't going to get a red cent unless this measure passes and I can almost guarantee you it won't without spreading love to all the wards.

[checkthat]

I think we will need to figure out the tax for all of this. We're looking at a MAPS 4 penny sales tax extension, a NEW education sales tax (huh?), and an RTA tax on top of that. I think that MAPS and the RTA will need to find some way to nest the taxes into each other. In OKC, maybe there isn't an RTA tax if part of the MAPS tax goes to the OKGO system.

Hey now, it is only another penny. There are, like, 100 in every dollar!