First National Center

[Spartan]

Yeah, we've gotta believe in ourselves, and quit handicapping our own success with skywalks and undergrounds to every garage. We're a warm weather city. We should have people outside, everywhere.

[bchris02]

Really? Only 13. You really believe that? OKC has as much or more good days for a walk outside than many other cities in the nation. Skywalks and tunnels reduce the number of people on the streets. We need people walking on the streets to give the city a sense of life. We need some hustle and bustle on the street level.

OKC has a climate of extremes. Winters can be brutally cold, especially with the strong north wind that usually accompanies cold weather here. Springs are rainy and stormy, with torrential downpours accompanied by strong winds as opposed to the gentle, soaking rains they get on the east coast. Summers are usually brutally hot. There are really only a few months out of the year where the weather is consistently pleasant. OKC's climate is definitely not a selling point of this area. With that said, I don't believe the weather is the primary reason the streets of the CBD are so dead. The reason is people don't have any reason to walk on the streets. The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather. The underground, if it even exists, should only be a secondary route during inclement weather and most of the activity should be concentrated at the streets. The city isn't currently large or dense enough for both to thrive.

[GaryOKC6]

I also enjoy the underground. I don't see it being a deterrent to retail at all. I have been downtown since the late 1980's and use the underground pretty much every day, especially in the winter. It actually seems to drive traffic to the first national hallway. It offers a great way to get around when it is cold, rainy or even really hot. Since I wear a suit it makes walking around in the hottest part of the year unpleasant as well. I like to take a walk during the day and one lap through first national and the underground is nearly a half a mile. Did it today after lunch.

[ljbab728]

The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather.

Have you been in the underground recently?

Oklahoma City's Underground, AKA The Conncourse

What's down there?

Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival

[ljbab728]

The underground and skywalks connect most of the buildings and most of the businesses are concentrated in the underground. If they were on the street, you would see a lot more street activity, regardless of the weather.

Have you been in the underground recently?

Oklahoma City's Underground, AKA The Conncourse

What's down there?

Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival

[TheTravellers]

^^^ I can verify this, wife used to walk laps there during lunch when she was still employed downtown, and the Post Office and China Chef were about the only things she went to there...

[PhiAlpha]

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

[HangryHippo]

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

I tend to agree with Phi. We just don't have the concentration of residents yet.

[Plutonic Panda]

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings. Look at any other city with a lack of full time residential options downtown and the lack of street life is similar. Off the top of my head, Tulsa's sidewalks look completely dead during the day as well as at night and they don't have an expansive tunnel system. It does have a ton of ground floor retail space and pedestrian friendly areas, but lacks residential (for now).

Besides every time I've been in the Underground (during normal weather conditions), I don't see that many people down there. Where are all the people that it is supposedly sucking away from the streets? A tunnel system may not be conducive to street life, but I don't think it is as big of hinderance is it is being made out to be.

Yeah. Skywalks and the underground have very little affect on the street life. I support those things and think they need to be expanded as the downtown grows actually.

People should have the option and forcing them to walk on the street especially during inclement weather is not right.

[PhiAlpha]

I tend to agree with Phi. We just don't have the concentration of residents yet.

To expand on that, the Underground closes at 8:00 PM and many buildings with public access to the tunnels close prior to that. Why isn't there much street life after that time? Too few people with too few places to go (or at least open places). The same can be said for parts of Bricktown outside of Thursday night through early Sunday morning.

[Pete]

You also can't assume that everyone in the tunnels -- which I agree is usually a low number -- would necessarily be on the street otherwise.

On the especially bad days that tend to drive people to the Underground, I'm sure most would just stay in their building or very close by. You don't have to walk very far from anywhere in the CBD to find a lunch option or ATM.

[PhiAlpha]

You also can't assume that everyone in the tunnels -- which I agree is usually a low number -- would necessarily be on the street otherwise.

On the especially bad days that tend to drive people to the Underground, I'm sure most would just stay in their building or very close by. You don't have to walk very far from anywhere in the CBD to find a lunch option or ATM.

That's true as well, I just don't like the underground being used as the end all excuse for our lack of daily street life in the CBD, there are a lot of other factors at play.

[bchris02]

I definitely don't think the Underground is the only reason for the lack of street activity. Not having very many permanent residents in the CBD contributes greatly and First National Center, if completed and converted to housing, will be a huge step in the right direction. However, if the primary way to get to the businesses is through the concourse, then there won't be as much street activity despite how many people are living in the CBD. To get active streets, there will need to be both people AND businesses for them to walk to with streetfront entrances.

[ljbab728]

However, if the primary way to get to the businesses is through the concourse, then there won't be as much street activity despite how many people are living in the CBD. To get active streets, there will need to be both people AND businesses for them to walk to with streetfront entrances.

Why would it be the primary way to get to the businesses?

[Just the facts]

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

[ljbab728]

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

Seriously, Kerry? Please provide evidence that there are 43 restaurants and retailers that have an entrance on the Concourse. They must be very well hidden from sight. I can believe that they may not have sidewalk entrances, but that seems a little suspect.

Have you ever been to the massive underground shopping and dining areas in Montreal? It's quite easy to never have to go onto the sidewalks there and that evolved because of weather conditions in winter.

[bchris02]

Have you ever been to the massive underground shopping and dining areas in Montreal? It's quite easy to never have to go onto the sidewalks there and that evolved because of weather conditions in winter.

It's hard to compare a major metropolitan city with a dense urban core like Montreal to OKC. Get 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC and yes, the city could support an amazing, active concourse as well as street retail and restaurants.

[ljbab728]

It's hard to compare a major metropolitan city with a dense urban core like Montreal to OKC. Get 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC and yes, the city could support an amazing, active concourse as well as street retail and restaurants.

No, it's not hard to compare. I'm referring to a reason to have the underground retail and restaurants and that reason is valid in either city. Kerry is basically saying that there should never be any underground tunnels anywhere I'm not saying I support massive retail and shopping in the concourse in OKC, I'm just saying it has basically nothing to do with lack of sidewalk traffic here because of the lack of such.

[bchris02]

No, it's not hard to compare.

It's comparing apples and oranges. When you have 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC or heck, even 60,000, then that comparison becomes more valid. Today, there aren't enough people downtown and thus not enough business activity to support both an active concourse and an active sidewalk. It will have to be one or the other.

[ljbab728]

It's comparing apples and oranges. When you have 150,000 people living within two miles of FNC or heck, even 60,000, then that comparison becomes more valid. Today, there aren't enough people downtown and thus not enough business activity to support both an active concourse and an active sidewalk. It will have to be one or the other.

You are totally overlooking my point. We have an active concourse only because it's foot traffic. (and I'm not sure it's really that active.) It's not because there is retail or restaurants there to attract the traffic. I spent several days in downtown Montreal last year and I seriously doubt that there are even as many as 60,000 people living with 2 miles.

[PhiAlpha]

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

There is a difference between being "delicate" and not wanting to destroy a network of recently renovated tunnels to fix a problem that they aren't the primary or even secondary cause of. Few here are advocating for expansion of the system or the expansion of retail down there.

[Rover]

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

So you are saying the concourse is a vibrant active walking area that encourages a bunch of local businesses? And lots of people must find it very walkable? Sounds pretty urban. But, you are saying that it is bad, not because it isn't walkable, but because it isn't walkable in the place you want?

I think you way overstate its impact and way oversimplify .... As usual. Dogma over facts and reason. Just because people want to walk a quarter mile in a tunnel vs a quarter mile at street level doesn't make them stupid or lazy. But if you feel better demeaning anyone who doesn't agree, so be it.

Personally, I don't care to ever go to the concourse and agree that it is way more desirable to have a lovely, inviting, active outdoor area, but I don't happen to think those that don't agree are stupid and lazy.

Btw, as for you fact of 43 restaurants, etc., according to a September article in About Travel: Today, the Underground is managed by Downtown OKC Inc and is essentially just a walking area. At one time, the tunnels contained many shops and restaurants, but that isn't really the case anymore, though you can occasionally find art exhibits and other special events. For example, each February Oklahoma City Riversport hosts the RUNderground 5k, in conjunction with the popular Bart & Nadia Sports & Health Festival.

[dcsooner]

43 restaurants and retailers have an entrance on the Conncourse, but not to the sidewalk. How much more proof do you need? The retailers follow their customers. Close the Conncourse and those 43 businesses reorientate their space to the street.

Places much warmer, much colder, much wetter, much drier, more windy, more humid, more everything AND less everything around the world seem to be chalk full of citizens who aren't as 'delicate' as the average OKCitian appears to be. How the hell were most of you spawned from the people who rode covered wagons across the Plains?

+1

[Jim Kyle]

I stand by my statement that the lack of street life in the CBD and even Bricktown has much more to do with the lack of permanent residents than the option to walk underground or above ground from a few buildings.

Something that many of us who were there at the time have forgotten, and possibly younger thereticians never knew, about the CBD prior to Urban Renewal is that it was almost 50% composed of residential facilities! For instance, the mid-rise Herskowitz Building on the NE corner of Broadway and Grand (now Sheridan) had retail on the ground level but the other eight (as I recall) stories were all apartments and usually fully occupied by long-term residents.

The same was true of many other buildings in the area. Quite a few folk lived in the hotels full-time, not just as transients. And those hotels weren't confined to the big names such as Skirvin and Biltmore. Former Gov. Alfalfa Bill Murray lived in the Bristol at NW 2 and Broadway. The 2-story retail on the east side of Broadway between NW 2 and NW 3 almost all had tenement-level apartments on their second floors. So did buildings on NW 3 ttoward Robinson, and a number of places along Main Street.

This all went away as "blight" a few years later, and to date none of it except for high-end housing has been restored. Nobody even seems to want to restore the flop-houses and tenements that marked "downtown" in the 40s and 50s, but it was a definite part of what gave the area its vitality. Low-end workers without private transportation other than their feet require all sorts of service establishments -- cafes, bars, entertainment -- and without them, downtown died. Can we bring it back to life without them? I doubt it....

[kevinpate]

Just an FYI ... if there are only 13 decent weather days in OKC in a year, we now only have 12 left. Today was a right fair day.