Macy's at Quail Springs Mall is going out of buisiness.

[Patrick]

Wouldn't be surprised if JC Penney chooses to leave QSM, and instead chooses to locate a new store in Chisolm Creek. Similar to what they did when they left Crossroads to move to Moore.

As has been said, QSM is lucky not to have a lifestyle center to compete with. I really think that had the Tuscana development (towards the north of the mall) become a reality, QSM would've been a goner.

And the demographics around QSM are more varied than you'd think. There are some nice neighborhoods close by, but there are also a lot of run down 70's and 80's apartment complexes, like the 122nd and Penn area for instance. What keeps Penn Square going is the concentrated dense wealth in the Nichols Hills area. With Quail, the wealth is so spread out, and even then, it's just as easy to jump on the Parkway and head down to the nicer mall (Penn) than it is to drive across town to go to Quail.

[Patrick]

The only problem with creating a new main entrance in the Macy's space is that it's on the back side of the mall. Wouldn't really make much sense to have the main entrance on the back side.

[mugofbeer]

This is how it all started with Crossroads Mall, lost a large anchor, then another..........

Other than having a highway to the south and red dirt underneath, there is virtually nothing similar in the demographics of the two malls.

Park Meadows put in an outdoor shopping wing with several bars/restaurants and outward facing higher end retailers and has been very successful

[bchris02]

Wouldn't be surprised if JC Penney chooses to leave QSM, and instead chooses to locate a new store in Chisolm Creek. Similar to what they did when they left Crossroads to move to Moore.

As has been said, QSM is lucky not to have a lifestyle center to compete with. I really think that had the Tuscana development (towards the north of the mall) become a reality, QSM would've been a goner.

I agree with this. Tuscana would have been the end of Quail Springs Mall. Von Maur and H&M probably would have ended up there instead.

I want to see QSM succeed simply because of H&M and Von Maur. It will be terrible for those retailers if it goes into decline. Otherwise, I would say let JC Penney and Dillard's build new locations in Chisholm Creek and let QSM run its course.

And the demographics around QSM are more varied than you'd think. There are some nice neighborhoods close by, but there are also a lot of run down 70's and 80's apartment complexes, like the 122nd and Penn area for instance. What keeps Penn Square going is the concentrated dense wealth in the Nichols Hills area. With Quail, the wealth is so spread out, and even then, it's just as easy to jump on the Parkway and head down to the nicer mall (Penn) than it is to drive across town to go to Quail.

The apartments at NW 122nd and Penn are a big problem for the area. They have been for a long time. However, I am not sure how much they impact Quail Springs Mall. It's relatively small area and the homes in that area are quite nice. It's just the apartments that are a blight on the neighborhood. Penn has worse areas within a comparable distance.

The only problem with creating a new main entrance in the Macy's space is that it's on the back side of the mall. Wouldn't really make much sense to have the main entrance on the back side.

It could be done, easily. Carolina Place Mall in Charlotte has its main entrance on the side facing away from the highway, with Barnes and Noble and REI having outdoor entrances along with a few restaurants. They could reconfigure NW 140th St and orient the mall towards it rather than Memorial, which is a traffic nightmare with poor accessibility as it is. It could turn out to be very nice.

Another thing GGP should seriously consider is revamping the AMC theater. It's very dated by today's standards. I personally avoid going to see movies there because of the smaller screen sizes and poor sound quality.

[poe]

Does GGP do any upscale malls or are they mostly middle-tier malls like QSM?

GGP does have some nice, upscale centers, and the way some of them look, you can tell where they're investing their time and money.

Good examples: Shops at La Cantera (San Antonio); Ala Moana Center (Honolulu); Natick Mall (Boston); Tysons Galleria (McLean, VA). Of course, all of these have totally different demographics than those of QSM, but I believe each are considered very upscale.

[Just the facts]

Tear it down and put in a parking garage. The wind on that side of the mall is brutal and a garage would protect people from the elements - and open the rest of the 300 acre parking lot for development.

Yes, I know it isn't really 300 acres, it just seems like it.

[Swake]

Promenade, although not as prime as Woodland Hills, must still be doing pretty well, as they've maintained all of their anchor stores (Dillard's, JC Penney, and Macy's...and the movie theater) aside from the Mervyns space. Last weekend I was up there it seemed like the movie theater was a big draw for the mall.

Well, what does help Promenade is that Utica Square will not lease to midrange stores, or has not to this point. No Victoria's Secret allowed for example. I myself like Promenade for all the structured parking. It's so much easier to go to Promenade if you have to hit Dillards or Macys and park in a garage right by the door instead of in the sea of parking at Woodland. Especially in the 100 degree summer heat. There's also no space in midtown for anything like a new "lifestyle" center to compete with Promenade.

Things seem to be changing at Utica Square (see the end of Miss Jacksons and Petty's Fine Foods being forced out) since Walt Helmerich passed a few years ago.

[Soonerman]

I've heard Macys was going to close the Promenade store, But the mall got them a sweetheart deal.

[jbkrems]

I heard Macy's was going to close at Promenade, as well. But Promenade is not doing well, at all, financially, and has been struggling for years.

[SomeGuy]

I heard Macy's was going to close at Promenade, as well. But Promenade is not doing well, at all, financially, and has been struggling for years.

Yeah Promenade is going to have to really step up their game in the next few years especially with the possible Outlet Mall ( or malls) being built in Tulsa.

[bchris02]

Yeah Promenade is going to have to really step up their game in the next few years especially with the possible Outlet Mall ( or malls) being built in Tulsa.

I haven't been to the Tulsa Promenade. My understanding is that it has been in a downhill slide for quite some time. The issue is its sandwiched between Utica Square, the best shopping center in the state, and Woodland Hills, Tulsa's very successful suburban, upscale-leaning middle class mall.

The new outlet mall will likely have a negative impact on Woodland Hills and the Tulsa Promenade, but may in fact do the Promenade in. It's going to be difficult for the Promenade to go upscale being that most upscale retailers entering the Tulsa market end up in Utica Square or nearby.

In OKC, the lack of an upscale destination shopping center like Utica Square or a lifestyle center means it isn't too late for Quail Springs Mall to fix its problems. If they wait until Chisholm Creek and Glimcher are completed, they could have issues.

[Uptowner]

I haven't read through quite all the comments. But has anyone considered Amazon.com as the downfall of the department store? It probably makes me a crappy consumer to an evil company that's shrinking retail centers globally.

But if I want a fiesta ware gravy boat and an all-clad ladle. Amazon. If I need a set of 2,000,000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets. Amazon. Copy of Krull on blu-Ray? Amazon.

I just bought 4 pairs of Levi's off Amazon because the cut and size I like wasn't to be found in a 4 hour sojourn at penn square. I bought on Wednesday and they arrived Friday. One pair fit irregularly so I printed a free return barcode Saturday. My exchange will arrive Monday before my return is processed, free of charge.

They've even started to do food now. I was able to get all my import foods...British, Italian, Indian, Israeli. Oh and some razors, peanuts butter, toothpaste, some over the counter drugs, a bulk pack of sparkle...you get the idea. I think I'll keep going to the grocery store. But it's a viable option for hard to find imports and bulk buys. And cheap.

Convenience is the devil. And sooner than we may think, it might be delivered by drone.

[Uptowner]

Also on the topic of malls. I would really appreciate a premium outlet mall. As in a mall that sells last seasons fashion in addition to new merch. I've been to a few but recently Las Vegas blew me away. Round rock Texas is a good example. But I fear "the shoppes" would have poisoned the market for a developer to risk a premium mall.

I was utterly disappointed with the stores that sell "polo limited" the gap didn't sell the same clothes as the actual gap. Coach isn't real coach. The le cruset is made in China and the Levis store only stocks the cheap/thin denim. This surely isn't true of every store,and it wasn't of the sunglasses hut, but it feels like gainsville 20 years ago. And it wasn't a "treat yourself" experience so much as a "back to school". But hey there's a Ted's now!

[AnguisHerba]

The Macy's Promenade store does about 33% less in annual sales than the Quail Springs Macy's location. Sales have been falling at both locations for the past several years. I hadn't heard about the possible sweetheart deal with Promenade for Macy's, but something like that would be the only reason the Promenade store survived getting cut.

[Zorba]

I haven't read through quite all the comments. But has anyone considered Amazon.com as the downfall of the department store? It probably makes me a crappy consumer to an evil company that's shrinking retail centers globally.

But if I want a fiesta ware gravy boat and an all-clad ladle. Amazon. If I need a set of 2,000,000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets. Amazon. Copy of Krull on blu-Ray? Amazon.

I just bought 4 pairs of Levi's off Amazon because the cut and size I like wasn't to be found in a 4 hour sojourn at penn square. I bought on Wednesday and they arrived Friday. One pair fit irregularly so I printed a free return barcode Saturday. My exchange will arrive Monday before my return is processed, free of charge.

They've even started to do food now. I was able to get all my import foods...British, Italian, Indian, Israeli. Oh and some razors, peanuts butter, toothpaste, some over the counter drugs, a bulk pack of sparkle...you get the idea. I think I'll keep going to the grocery store. But it's a viable option for hard to find imports and bulk buys. And cheap.

Convenience is the devil. And sooner than we may think, it might be delivered by drone.

Amazon has to making a huge impact. I am probably up to spending at least 33-50% of my none food retail expenditures on Amazon, and I am not even that big of an Amazon fan. Online retailers should have to start collecting sales tax. It is unfair to city/state governments and B&M retail. The exemption may have made sense in the late 90s, but e-retail is established now and is not going any where, so there is no purpose for this law any more. The only reason it still exist is because people get so bent out of shape about "new" taxes (even though technically you have always been legally require to pay the tax yourself).

[stile99]

Online retailers should have to start collecting sales tax. It is unfair to city/state governments and B&M retail

In what sense is it unfair? City governments collect tax to pay for such things as schools, police, and fire departments. I can see no possible reason a resident of Oklahoma City Oklahoma should be expected to pay for these things in Bozeman Montana, and vice versa. State governments charge taxes to pay more for the infrastructure, the roads for example, which the delivery companies already pay in the fuel tax. The resident of Bozeman Montana should not be expected to pay for the upkeep of Meridian Blvd in OKC. Not to turn this all political, but why is the only argument for collecting tax from people who do not owe it always 'fairness', using some strange definition of 'fair' that appears in no dictionary?

If online shopping is killing brick and mortar (what, we're on the 20th anniversary of that claim now? 25th? Should I get a card? Something in silver perhaps?) then brick and mortar needs to start offering what online is offering, rather than whine about how taxes are 'unfair'. If I go to Amazon, I can have my order delivered to my door in two days. If I go to a store, delivery will be an extra charge, it will be sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, assuming it is even offered at all. If you can't compete, go ahead and die rather than scream about how 'unfair' it is that the other guy is better than you. I literally can NOT count the number of times I've gone into a store only to hear "We don't have that in stock, but we can order it". Yeah. So can I.

So I do.

[Rivalyn]

In regards to Belk, it definitely has its appeal as weirdly enough I find a lot of younger kids like to go there in Dallas. It's like Kohl's but cooler in their eyes.

Zara would be another definite add to QSM as it coupled with H&M were/are my biggest places to shop when I go down to Dallas. Provides the added benefit of having clothes for myself as well as for the kids. Now I'd absolutely love a Suit Supply, but I could see them going into Chisholm Creek quicker than QSM.

Von Maur confuses the ever loving out of me because everyone was excited to go check it out and then realized that it seems to cater to well heeled older ladies with large amounts of disposable income. I've had quite a few 20-30 year old female friends walk in once and realize they'll probably never go again.

Are there any companies like Nebraska Furniture Mart that anchor malls? I know a ridiculous number of people go down to Dallas for Ikea and the like, although it probably wouldn't be considered moving Quail Springs "upscale".

[bchris02]

Yeah I was excited about Von Maur but don't do much shopping there because it clearly caters to an older clientele. That may be their business model, but I think they would be more successful if they had more of a mix.

I agree on Belk. Though I would place it a notch above Kohl's (at least the Charlotte locations), it is a much cooler place to shop.

[onthestrip]

In what sense is it unfair? City governments collect tax to pay for such things as schools, police, and fire departments. I can see no possible reason a resident of Oklahoma City Oklahoma should be expected to pay for these things in Bozeman Montana, and vice versa. State governments charge taxes to pay more for the infrastructure, the roads for example, which the delivery companies already pay in the fuel tax. The resident of Bozeman Montana should not be expected to pay for the upkeep of Meridian Blvd in OKC. Not to turn this all political, but why is the only argument for collecting tax from people who do not owe it always 'fairness', using some strange definition of 'fair' that appears in no dictionary?

If online shopping is killing brick and mortar (what, we're on the 20th anniversary of that claim now? 25th? Should I get a card? Something in silver perhaps?) then brick and mortar needs to start offering what online is offering, rather than whine about how taxes are 'unfair'. If I go to Amazon, I can have my order delivered to my door in two days. If I go to a store, delivery will be an extra charge, it will be sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, assuming it is even offered at all. If you can't compete, go ahead and die rather than scream about how 'unfair' it is that the other guy is better than you. I literally can NOT count the number of times I've gone into a store only to hear "We don't have that in stock, but we can order it". Yeah. So can I.

So I do.

If you buy online in OKC from an online retailer based in Bozeman, the sales taxes would be collected and used in OKC. It wouldnt be for Bozeman, if thats the point you were trying to make.

You also say you do not owe it but legally you do. Its just that it isnt enforced. So this isnt a new tax.

And the reason "fairness" is used because thats exactly what B&M retailers want, some fairness. And you can think its not but it is hurting B&M stores, its hurting locally owned mom and pop stores, it hurts local real estate when stores close because they cant compete with Amazons built in 8-9% advantage. This is the truth, whether you want to believe it or not. And its only getting worse.

Not to mention, if Okla could collect online sales tax, youd see a lot of our budget problems relieved greatly.

Continue doing all your shopping on Amazon if you like, I do it myself occasionally. Just know that its at the expense of your local economy.

[bchris02]

^^^ It really is hard to believe we still aren't taxing online purchases.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine doing clothes shopping online.

[stile99]

If you buy online in OKC from an online retailer based in Bozeman, the sales taxes would be collected and used in OKC. It wouldnt be for Bozeman, if thats the point you were trying to make.

You also say you do not owe it but legally you do. Its just that it isnt enforced. So this isnt a new tax.

Incorrect. It would obviously be collected by the retailer, wherever they may be located, and forwarded to OKC. I did not say the OKC resident does not owe the tax, I said the retailer, who gets no services from OKC and therefore owes no tax to OKC does not owe it. But being forced to collect it, and forward it, and maintain a huge database of tax rates for every single locality in the United States is 'fair', somehow.

You also claim I think it is not hurting B&M stores...yet I never said that. You then claim I do all my shopping on Amazon...yet I never said that.

[traxx]

Like I said in the QSM thread, this really doesn't surprise me. No investment has been made in that property. I think the carpet is still the same carpet that was in that space when it was John A. Brown. QSM has to chase a higher tier tenant to bring in better clientele. If they start bringing in discount retailers etc., they're going to go the same way as Crossroads.

[onthestrip]

Incorrect. It would obviously be collected by the retailer, wherever they may be located, and forwarded to OKC. I did not say the OKC resident does not owe the tax, I said the retailer, who gets no services from OKC and therefore owes no tax to OKC does not owe it. But being forced to collect it, and forward it, and maintain a huge database of tax rates for every single locality in the United States is 'fair', somehow.

You also claim I think it is not hurting B&M stores...yet I never said that. You then claim I do all my shopping on Amazon...yet I never said that.

The retailer in Bozeman gets no services from Oklahoma or OKC? On what roads then do you expect that package to get delivered on? Is Bozeman or Montanna paying for that Oklahoma road? And simple software can take care of the tax rates of cities and states.

[stile99]

The retailer in Bozeman gets no services from Oklahoma or OKC? On what roads then do you expect that package to get delivered on? Is Bozeman or Montanna paying for that Oklahoma road?

This was addressed in my original post, still available in this thread.

[onthestrip]

This was addressed in my original post, still available in this thread.

Fuel taxes arent sufficient enough, or the only thing that funds road maintenance. Sales taxes are a part of that equation too.

A business that gets a built in advantage over another because a state lacks the resources, or is handicapped by the federal govt on collecting a tax isnt fair for the one that has to pay it. Simple as that.