OG&E Energy Center

[ljbab728]

City Rep does some in the round too.

It's not really in the round. They use the City Space Theater in the Civic Center for some productions, like the Oklahoma City Theater Company. I've been there for many productions. The seating is on 3 sides of the stage.

[bombermwc]

They weren't all In The Round either. The larger room was Thrust. It was actually one of the better designs for intimate theater (think Burge at OCU). You can still see a small layout at johnmjohansen.com. Thrust works really well if you want to be able to have the audience engaged with the performers. Here's a shot of a show there WAY back when. Except they killed the Thrust idea by walling off the audience with more concrete. Contrast that with the lack of any wall at all at OCU. Sorry, it's a bit difficult to get pictures in the place. I can't get you an audience view, but right off the stage, is the first row of seating, which wraps around the whole "half" stage, with two "tunnels" for actors in enter/exit with. This, for an example, is City Rep performing at Burge at OCU.

I'll just say this. Regardless of our views on the architecture of the place from the outside, that did NOT keep people from coming to the facility. If the performances in the facility had been a big draw, we would have continued to visit the facility and give money through our ticket purchases/donations. The failure of the place, from a financial standpoint, has more to do with the products being presented inside and the cost overruns the facility caused just to maintain it. Those same organizations (in their new forms) do much better in lease agreements with existing facilities. Just because it was from New York, isn't what killed it. If we had problems with a New York view, why would the people of Oklahoma be so in love with the BOK Tower/Williams Center in Tulsa? It's hard to ignore that the architected copied his own work from the World Trade Center for that one. And he didn't hide that fact either. The architect obviously was trying to make a brutalist statement rather than try to meld. Fine, I'm not opposed to that. He just failed with this one. Is it so wrong to say that an architect failed? I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that....they're humans.....it happens.

[Spartan]

I think there was a question in there. Yes. BOK is great architecture. It's a 2/3 replica of the WTC designed by Minoru Yamasaki. All of the ranting against Stage Center is rationalization for our irrational hatred of Stage Center. We demo'd it bc we were giddy over a new oil tower. I'm not trying to reopen the wound to collect my told you so, but rather make sure we all realize how stupid that was and don't do it again.

We will have plenty of future opportunities for new oil towers once dirt water is worth >$50. Let's not tear down anything we can't replace, and choose carefully bc the music will start and stop again. OKC, as this weird embodiment of some dirt metropolis from Star Wars, is so proud of its construction sites that we have next to zero construction mitigation (standard elsewhere). Sidewalks are blocked off, Lake Rainey breeding Mosquitos, roads closed for years on end, dirt tracks all over downtown, etc. Now watch as it takes the next oil boom until we clean it all up again, and then we'll tear it all down and rebuild it again.

We aren't working off of MAPS. We are still just coasting from oil boom to bust and waiting it out for the next boom. We don't actually have a strategy that involves livability, which sucks for those of us that have to live here, which our people are really our greatest asset. The state's lost nearly 12,000 energy jobs in the last half year. These people will leave us if their oil job/life is all they have here. At least we have damaging (now 50% bigger!) earthquakes for free entertainment.

[bchris02]

We aren't working off of MAPS. We are still just coasting from oil boom to bust and waiting it out for the next boom. We don't actually have a strategy that involves livability, which sucks for those of us that have to live here, which our people are really our greatest asset. The state's lost nearly 12,000 energy jobs in the last half year. These people will leave us if their oil job/life is all they have here. At least we have damaging (now 50% bigger!) earthquakes for free entertainment.

I've heard this said a lot, but to you what would a strategy that involves livability look like other than better efforts to preserve history?

[Spartan]

Housing. We need good, decent, competitive housing. Academically, affordable housing is evaluated on two metrics: affordable to what % area median income, and the condition. What for what. OKC always touts one of its biggest weaknesses (our housing is mostly unattractive, with some commensurately overpriced gems mixed in), first and foremost, in promo pieces. With SandRidge, years before the NYSE delisted them, we killed actual housing proposals so they could have the corporate plaza of their dreams. We are so behind the curve on urban housing. I used to be amazed at how at ahead the Eastern Great Lakes are. Then I went to Minneapolis. They have 40,000 downtown residents, up 7,000 from 2006, and planning for 70,000 by 2025. All bc of (probably) the nation's most efficient light rail network. They are the model for urban development.

We are doing better on parks, but it was BAD when MAPS first began. The typical city park was a stick tree, next to a bright plastic jungle gym, with a walking trail around it and the requisite parking lot. We've had starts and stops on canopy programs (we should really try to make NeighborWoods successful) that also help, so I'm not worried about our strategy there. We just need to get back to work on that, like we did before. We also need to memorize our fascinating recent history.

Lastly, we funded a transit program nearly a decade ago. We still aren't very close to using an improved transit system, which is going to take decades of work even after we shake things up with the streetcar's first phase.

So that's what I mean. Historic preservation, and in this case landmark preservation, is certainly up there with those issues.

[Just the facts]

Well I didn't like Stage Center because it was bad urban design. I didn't like the OG&E plan either because it was also bad urban design. I don't care for 499 either. Anyone care to guess why?

I would rather the site just stay Lake Lackmeyer until someone comes along and proposes something that actually contributes to the area instead of trying to be a stand-alone work of art (preferably with sidewalk dining and residential fronting the park).

[Laramie]

Well I didn't like Stage Center because it was bad urban design. I didn't like the OG&E plan either because it was also bad urban design. I don't care for 499 either. Anyone care to guess why?

I would rather the site just stay Lake Lackmeyer until someone comes along and proposes something that actually contributes to the area instead of trying to be a stand-alone work of art (preferably with sidewalk dining and residential fronting the park).

How about something on the design of Trammel Crow Center in Dallas:


Trammel Crow Center, 50 stories, 686 ft built in 1984

Would that satisfy urban design & height as a great use of space?

[stlokc]

I'm not an expert on these things but that building in Dallas doesn't look like good urban design to me. Looks like it sits in a "plaza" of trees and I'm not seeing much interaction with the streets in the way of retail, restaurants etc. It's not really in a downtown area though so maybe that's not to be expected.

[Just the facts]

I actually don't care for height. Topping out at 10 stories is good for me. The most important part of any building is the first 20 feet.

[Spartan]

Are we revving up the mystery tower dream machine again?

[Laramie]

I actually don't care for height. Topping out at 10 stories is good for me. The most important part of any building is the first 20 feet.

You should love Phoenix?

If you're going to build, go ahead and get more for your bucks--height on a tower increases its visibility and adds to an impressive OKC skyline. Oklahoma City is moving in the direction of many cities that started their building skyline boom in the 70s & 80s like Atlanta, Dallas, Denver & Houston.

[bchris02]

You should love Phoenix?

If you're going to build, go ahead and get more for your bucks--height on a tower increases its visibility and adds to an impressive OKC skyline. Oklahoma City is moving in the direction of many cities that started their building skyline boom in the 70s & 80s like Atlanta, Dallas, Denver & Houston.

Phoenix lacks height and good urbanism. Luckily they have Scottsdale close which is awesome.

OKC needs to focus on urbanism and street interaction. Skyscrapers are pretty but they primarily look good from a distance and may or may not positively contribute to the urban fabric of a city. Height is also entirely a result of economics and its something that isn't likely to happen when oil is $20/bbl. Unless you are Devon, who wanted an iconic skyscraper, developers will only build up when it makes economic sense to do so.

[Spartan]

You should love Phoenix?

If you're going to build, go ahead and get more for your bucks--height on a tower increases its visibility and adds to an impressive OKC skyline. Oklahoma City is moving in the direction of many cities that started their building skyline boom in the 70s & 80s like Atlanta, Dallas, Denver & Houston.

Define "moving."

[hoya]

You should love Phoenix?

If you're going to build, go ahead and get more for your bucks--height on a tower increases its visibility and adds to an impressive OKC skyline. Oklahoma City is moving in the direction of many cities that started their building skyline boom in the 70s & 80s like Atlanta, Dallas, Denver & Houston.

The Valliance Bank Tower over by Penn Square Mall is 322 feet high. Since it's over by itself, it looks quite impressive. Unfortunately, that tower rises directly out of a parking garage, and is surrounded by nothing. There's no real way to walk to it, or from it. It doesn't add anything to the street or neighborhood around it.



A good skyscraper adds life to the area. You've got a lot of people concentrated in one location. When they get off work, or go to lunch, they add a huge amount of foot traffic to the streets and sidewalks. A bad skyscraper doesn't interact with the neighborhood at all. The Valliance Bank Tower adds a large amount of cars to the interstate when the people go to lunch. It isn't good street interaction. The Dallas skyscraper posted above looks fine, until you get down to the bottom couple of floors. It is shielded from the street by a bunch of trees. There are no stores or anything at the ground level. Of course it's surrounded by acres of surface parking lots as well, so I don't know how many people are going to be walking by.

Give me that tower, drop it down on an empty lot downtown. Eliminate those trees and bring it right up to the curb. Take that ground floor and put in the main entrance right on the corner. Put in some big windows along the street with storefronts. I'd be ecstatic. But right now, that building is designed to look pretty from a distance, and to keep people out up close.

[zookeeper]

The Valliance Bank Tower over by Penn Square Mall is 322 feet high. Since it's over by itself, it looks quite impressive. Unfortunately, that tower rises directly out of a parking garage, and is surrounded by nothing. There's no real way to walk to it, or from it. It doesn't add anything to the street or neighborhood around it.



A good skyscraper adds life to the area. You've got a lot of people concentrated in one location. When they get off work, or go to lunch, they add a huge amount of foot traffic to the streets and sidewalks. A bad skyscraper doesn't interact with the neighborhood at all. The Valliance Bank Tower adds a large amount of cars to the interstate when the people go to lunch. It isn't good street interaction. The Dallas skyscraper posted above looks fine, until you get down to the bottom couple of floors. It is shielded from the street by a bunch of trees. There are no stores or anything at the ground level. Of course it's surrounded by acres of surface parking lots as well, so I don't know how many people are going to be walking by.

Give me that tower, drop it down on an empty lot downtown. Eliminate those trees and bring it right up to the curb. Take that ground floor and put in the main entrance right on the corner. Put in some big windows along the street with storefronts. I'd be ecstatic. But right now, that building is designed to look pretty from a distance, and to keep people out up close.

I agree with everything you said. The tower itself, though, I really like. I've always heard the above-ground parking was because they couldn't put it underground because of all the water or some such thing. That was when Penn Square Bank was building the tower for their new offices. As we all know now, the parking became the least of their worries.

[bombermwc]

What's even more interesting about this tower is how many times it's been copied in other cities. We're probably most familiar with the shorter version with concrete instead of the marble exterior on 635 in Dallas ( 3 Park Central ) . My company actually has one of the floors in that tower in our Dallas office. Little known fact, the four corners actually serve as storage and mechanical spaces. They work well for conference space as well. But the building is similarly built with no interaction with it's surrounding area. If you think the NW Xway is an abomination to urbanism, you must have a coronary every time you drive down 635!!!!!

That's all totally unrelated at all to OG&E/Stage Center/etc,....just thought I'd throw an interesting fact our way.

[Spartan]

Interesting. Maybe we will keep you around, bomber. :P

I'll admit as a form viewed from afar, Valliance is the best tower in the city.

[Spartan]

Interesting. Maybe we will keep you around, bomber. :P

I'll admit as a form viewed from afar, Valliance is the best tower in the city.

[soonerguru]

I still can't get over how infuriating this saga was. It went just as it was predicted to go by many. Cannot believe our city leadership is so gullible / complicit in this matter.

[Laramie]

We have a nice rain pond. Optimistic that you'll see OGE break ground on something around 2017.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
It's actually not rain but instead groundwater, which is why it has never been dry. The water table is exposed there. It's hard to tell from that pic, but the surface of the water in that pool is roughly the same elevation as the surface of the water in the MBG lake across the street. This is why fairly extraordinary measures have to be taken when building below ground in this part of downtown.

[Laramie]

^^^^^^^
It's actually not rain but instead groundwater, which is why it has never been dry. The water table is exposed there. It's hard to tell from that pic, but the surface of the water in that pool is roughly the same elevation as the surface of the water in the MBG lake across the street. This is why fairly extraordinary measures have to be taken when building below ground in this part of downtown.

The original plans for the Myriad Convention Center was suppose to have multilevel underground parking. They discovered what was believed to be an abandoned underground Chinese laundry; they hit the water table--couldn't dig any deeper. Apparently, parts of the central core were developed over a dry riverbed.

City council members elected not to save the site. It was destroyed in the name of urban renewal, and what once was underground is now buried. The Cox Convention Center marks its grave.

Underground Chinatown OKC:

Unlocking the secrets of Oklahoma City's mysterious city | News OK

Urban Archaeologist - 405 Magazine - October 2012 - Oklahoma City

[Spartan]

We have a nice rain pond. Optimistic that you'll see OGE break ground on something around 2017.

I'm glad you're as excited as always.

[Snowman]

The original plans for the Myriad Convention Center was suppose to have multilevel underground parking. They discovered what was believed to be an abandoned underground Chinese laundry; they hit the water table--couldn't dig any deeper. Apparently, parts of the central core were developed over a dry riverbed.
...

The North Canadian river that is now entirely south of downtown used to be much shallower, wander all over near downtown, and massively flood every few years. Which means it it probably did change course in this area many times before the city was settled and the army corp of engineers made dam sure the city flooding was not going to happen again due to the river.

Edit: found an old map with the original river path

[Just the facts]

Most of downtown is the flood plain of the river. That hill on the north side of downtown is the original riverbank. Seeing that water level I still laugh at the very idea they were going to put the convention center halls underground and stay within budget. I fully expected the bait and switch on that one - but then they moved the whole thing and ruined all the fun.