OG&E Energy Center

[2Lanez]

Steve's comments in OKC Central chat today: OKC Central Chat transcript, Jan. 15, 2016 | News OK

Guest Jan 15 2016 11:05 AM
So it turns out we knew Rainey Williams after all, eh?

One question I have is if oil prices are the true reason for the deal's collapse, why were they requesting such a large TIF when oil was still at $100/bbl? To me, it would seem like the TIF deal is what doomed this and not oil. Secondly, why did the city allow Stage Center to be demolished prior to a deal being struck? With 499 Sheridan, as sad as it was to lose those buildings, at least the financing was already secured for the tower and the crane arrived the next week.

Do you think this could be the start of the conversation to somehow change city policy to prevent demolitions for deals that are not yet final? This has been done time and time again in OKC and the city doesn't seem to learn.


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:12 AM
OK, let's take on that little line at the start of your question. It's a line taken out of context from when it was said in a chat early on. Williams had bought and redeveloped BOK Plaza and had extensive real estate holdings. He had and has wealth of his own. There were those who had never heard of the guy and insisted he hadn't done anything of note. That was the entire context of that conversation. As for the oil prices going down, it's not that they devastate OGE Energy Corp. so much as they are dampening expectations on demand for more Class A office space. I reported what OGE Energy and Williams had to say on why the deal was being put on hold. Do I believe the TIF request had nothing to do with this? No. Along with Clayco, they were asking for an amount - $142 million - that hit City Hall dead on arrival. I reported extensively on this, including the back deals that had occurred between Williams, OGE and Shaun Frankfurt, who had competed with Williams in trying to buy the Stage Center property. You can read more here: Something You Didn't Know About the Stage Center Development | News OK


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:16 AM
When this deal was breaking, I was very uncomfortable with saying definitively which corporate entity would anchor the development. At the time I was getting information that Devon was going to fill part of the space. Others pointed to the Bob Moore Auto Group. And yet others were still saying MidFirst Bank. I still don't discount there were other companies at play early on as Rainy Williams was doing this deal. For years I pointed out the likely ties between Nick Preftakes and Devon Energy as Preftakes was buying up buildings west of Devon Energy Center. The indications of ties between Williams and OGE Energy were not nearly as evident.


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:17 AM
The city did revise it's ordinances relating to demolitions downtown. But at this point, after SandRidge Commons, the Union Bus Station, the former Carpenter Square Theater and Stage Center, what is really left to fight for?

[BDP]

Maybe we should leave buildings that are non functional standing that no one is willing to save or upgrade boarded up--a transits' paradise.

You have all the answers bcchris, let's hear your plan...

OKC (1889) is not as young? Louisville (1778), Richmond (1742) & Jacksonville (1791) are old enough to be Oklahoma City's great-great grandmother.

The thing is, we don't have to look at any other city anymore to know that reuse and renovation works. The most vibrant parts of the city today, the parts that are giving it a new, more positive identity, all owe their success to renovation and ALL of them were full of "non functioning", boarded up buildings for decades.

[Just the facts]

Honestly, it sounds like that would be just yet another non-profit doomed to failure in a non-functional building.

Yep. It would have been cheaper to just have the City buy it, seal every opening with concrete, and put it on display as public art - never to be used by anyone ever again for anything.

[Just the facts]

Oil companies only make a very small percentage of the jobs in OKC.

And, OG&E was only to have 27% of spec space and it wouldn't be on-line until two years.

They might be a small percentage of jobs - but they are one big percentage of downtown office space.

[Rover]

Anyone who doesn't think oil & gas prices aren't having a chilling effect on prospective office space in downtown has their head in the sand.

[BDP]

Anyone who doesn't think oil & gas prices aren't having a chilling effect on prospective office space in downtown has their head in the sand.

For sure, but this project wasn't feasible on its own from the beginning.

[HangryHippo]

This is a good point. A better approach may be to find a way to better encourage preservation, rather than preventing demolition. If we're going to forgo tax revenues and offer incentives, maybe we should designate where and how those incentives will be available in a way that encourages preservation of existing structures and more development on underdeveloped real estate in the core. It'd be easy to walk around downtown and find some empty lots, surface lots, and unused structures and say "if you develop or renovate these properties, you can get your TIF (or whatever is appropriate), while at the same time saying no TIF's can be offered for developments that involve demolition of certain structures. Maybe if these developers knew that statutorily the city could not offer any assistance with the property, they would have taken it a block or two away and done it on undeveloped land that they already knew was eligible for assistance.

Obviously, that's a very simplistic outline. There'd be problems to work out in it, but I do think that the problem isn't just that the city allows this to happen, it's that in a some ways it encourages it.

Fantastic idea!

[Spartan]

I hate to relive the whole Stage Center debate - but IF it had been made into a Children's Museum - it would have been the most expensive in the history of the planet. It was $30 million just to bring the place up to code and get a certificate of occupancy AND then the cost to outfit it as a Children's Museum (plus acquisition costs). Does anyone realize what kind of Children's Museum could be built from scratch with those kinds of dollars?

Do you really think $30 million is expensive for a museum? Lolz

[Spartan]

Steve's comments in OKC Central chat today: OKC Central Chat transcript, Jan. 15, 2016 | News OK

Guest Jan 15 2016 11:05 AM
So it turns out we knew Rainey Williams after all, eh?

One question I have is if oil prices are the true reason for the deal's collapse, why were they requesting such a large TIF when oil was still at $100/bbl? To me, it would seem like the TIF deal is what doomed this and not oil. Secondly, why did the city allow Stage Center to be demolished prior to a deal being struck? With 499 Sheridan, as sad as it was to lose those buildings, at least the financing was already secured for the tower and the crane arrived the next week.

Do you think this could be the start of the conversation to somehow change city policy to prevent demolitions for deals that are not yet final? This has been done time and time again in OKC and the city doesn't seem to learn.


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:12 AM
OK, let's take on that little line at the start of your question. It's a line taken out of context from when it was said in a chat early on. Williams had bought and redeveloped BOK Plaza and had extensive real estate holdings. He had and has wealth of his own. There were those who had never heard of the guy and insisted he hadn't done anything of note. That was the entire context of that conversation. As for the oil prices going down, it's not that they devastate OGE Energy Corp. so much as they are dampening expectations on demand for more Class A office space. I reported what OGE Energy and Williams had to say on why the deal was being put on hold. Do I believe the TIF request had nothing to do with this? No. Along with Clayco, they were asking for an amount - $142 million - that hit City Hall dead on arrival. I reported extensively on this, including the back deals that had occurred between Williams, OGE and Shaun Frankfurt, who had competed with Williams in trying to buy the Stage Center property. You can read more here: Something You Didn't Know About the Stage Center Development | News OK


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:16 AM
When this deal was breaking, I was very uncomfortable with saying definitively which corporate entity would anchor the development. At the time I was getting information that Devon was going to fill part of the space. Others pointed to the Bob Moore Auto Group. And yet others were still saying MidFirst Bank. I still don't discount there were other companies at play early on as Rainy Williams was doing this deal. For years I pointed out the likely ties between Nick Preftakes and Devon Energy as Preftakes was buying up buildings west of Devon Energy Center. The indications of ties between Williams and OGE Energy were not nearly as evident.


Steve Lackmeyer Jan 15 2016 11:17 AM
The city did revise it's ordinances relating to demolitions downtown. But at this point, after SandRidge Commons, the Union Bus Station, the former Carpenter Square Theater and Stage Center, what is really left to fight for?

Still curious why Steve thinks putting a new plaza in front of BOK accounts for "doing something." That's barely an investment. I think he spent $300,000 "upgrading" that bldg.

We need at least a $200 million investment on this block to justify the urban renewal we've already carried out.

[Just the facts]

Do you really think $30 million is expensive for a museum? Lolz

$30 million was just to get the power turned back on. The cost of the museum was on top of that. I really am curious though, when someone says Childrens Museum, how many people even know what that is?

[ljbab728]

$30 million was just to get the power turned back on. The cost of the museum was on top of that. I really am curious though, when someone says Childrens Museum, how many people even know what that is?

It's a museum with a bunch of stuffed kids isn't it?

[Bellaboo]

$30 million was just to get the power turned back on. The cost of the museum was on top of that. I really am curious though, when someone says Childrens Museum, how many people even know what that is?

Not too sure either, but the Science Museum in OKC, the Jasmine Moran in Seminole and Leonardo's in Enid already exists. Not too sure we needed another.

[Just the facts]

It's a museum with a bunch of stuffed kids isn't it?

Lol - but ours was going to be world class so the kids would all be alive.

There is no way a learnning/science museum was going to ever fit in Stage Center. Where were the exhibits even going to be, on the seat inclines? As said earlier, the building will killed off another victim.

[foodiefan]

Not too sure either, but the Science Museum in OKC, the Jasmine Moran in Seminole and Leonardo's in Enid already exists. Not too sure we needed another.

and Stillwater Wondertorium, plus child-focused areas of National Cowboy and Sam Noble. . . .

[bchris02]

Not too sure either, but the Science Museum in OKC, the Jasmine Moran in Seminole and Leonardo's in Enid already exists. Not too sure we needed another.

OKC would benefit from more museums downtown. I can understand the line of thought that the Stage Center wouldn't have worked, but some kind of children's museum or other museum downtown, integrated into the urban fabric, would be excellent. Right now, the only thing that exists is the art museum. Even if the AICC was completed, that is still separated off from downtown to the point that it might as well be in the suburbs.

[CCOKC]

Surely you just forgot the Banjo Museum in Bricktown.

[TheTravellers]

Surely you just forgot the Banjo Museum in Bricktown.

Which should *not* be forgotten, it's got some truly wonderful and historic banjos (although by about the hundredth one, you have to take a break, lol), and isn't nearly as publicized as it should be.

[Spartan]

$30 million was just to get the power turned back on. The cost of the museum was on top of that. I really am curious though, when someone says Childrens Museum, how many people even know what that is?

I don't think the $30 million was just to make electrical repairs, if that's what you mean by power back on. There was actually a lower number for a full rehabilitation, but with lower build-out. If you think a children's museum would have cost more, feel free to cite any relevant sources.

[bombermwc]

The truth is, the people who wanted to bulldoze the place had a lot more money than the people who wanted to save it. That doesn't make them "right", it just means they got their way.

Stage Center was a quirky property that would have required work and effort to save. The city didn't value it. Larry Nichols didn't value it. OG&E didn't value it. Now perhaps the people who did value Stage Center dropped the ball by not being more proactive earlier in the process. By the time they realized what was at stake, it was too late to save it. Turning Stage Center into a children's museum would have been a simple addition to a new MAPS program. We could have added that to MAPS 3 and it would just be a rounding error in the cost of the convention center.

I don't think the people who wanted to save it realized the danger it was in until it was too late.

Part of the problems with the place was the inefficient use of space. If three disjointed auditoriums of various sizes doesn't work FOR plays, how are they going to work for a museum? It would have been EXTREMELY small for a museum and would have required construction just to get things connected correctly. Not to mention the failures in design that caused the flooding/etc to happen.

ANY building in Bricktown would do a much better job at being a Children's Museum. Wanna see a real life example of how similar structures in a downtown can work out? Check out the San Antonio Children's Museum. The place was awesome and had 3 levels (2 plus basement) and had TONS of kids in there. Even they closed recently to move into a bigger space. Oh and it had zero parking out front too They were one of the earlier adopters of the "Do" ideas behind children's museums (think the new section of the Omniplex). They just ran out of space to DO any more.

[Spartan]

Stage Center was a theater in the round concept. For all of those who complain about it without knowing, and for those stage companies that didn't want to do theater in the round and then wondered why their performances didn't work, it's basic theater 101. OKC theater companies, and I love the Lyric but avante garde they are not, are overly used to (and dare I say reliant) on the standard black box theater. A proscenium theater is pretty crazy for them. A thrust stage would be beyond the pale, and would only ever get used for a "Fashion Week OKC" event (shudders at the thought). A theater in the round? Only ever worked for Shakespeare, which by the way, we do a lot because it works for the conservative local culture.

Stage Center needs to be remembered within the context of a national foundation, who wanted to bring a starchitect to a budding Midwestern capital city, both of whom underestimated the resentful independent streak that runs through that city. The foundation and architect thought they were doing us a favor by bringing starchitecture to OKC. They didn't understand the oil culture that dominates this community. That these guys thought they were doing us a favor, made the oil culture resent a New York design being dropped in on us even more. Day 1 that Stage Center was open - instead of celebrating the cutting-edge design, Dean A. McGee planted cedar trees that were designed to grow wild and fast. Nobody threatened theater companies for using Stage Center, but nobody rewarded them either, like you'd have in other communities. Luckily we have decent locally-favored alternatives like the Plaza and the restored Civic Center, which accelerated the alienation of Stage Center.

But just so we're all clear, the resentment of Stage Center, as this New York design that was forced upon us, comes from the same gene that Ted Cruz appeals to when he bashes another candidate for merely hailing from New York, whatever "New York values" means. OKC doesn't want those New York architectural values. We'd rather have a nice "rustic" lake in the middle of our downtown. I hope we enjoy that "rustic" lake, and that we collectively take a lot of grandchildren fishing, or whatever.

But I care about how this informs our paradigm moving forward, which we will. We will find a way to fill the self-inflicted wounds all around our city, but it probably won't occur within the next 20 years, and it won't be done with any historic architecture - which would have been nice. Nonetheless, we have no choice but to keep moving forward.

Hopefully one of these days, we will enact historic preservation standards that will maintain our architectural distinctiveness through even the craziest oil booms to come. We need to take advantage of these bust years to set up a framework that will allow OKC to grow in a strategic manner, rather than haphazardly as always.

[Just the facts]

Nm

[Just the facts]

I don't think the $30 million was just to make electrical repairs, if that's what you mean by power back on. There was actually a lower number for a full rehabilitation, but with lower build-out. If you think a children's museum would have cost more, feel free to cite any relevant sources.

Honestly, this has to be the most worthless topic in the history of OKCTalk. I am just going to bow out at this point. If you want to continue to talk about a hypothetical museum in a building that no longer exist then knock yourself out.

[Spartan]

No. $30 million for a full build-out, with no phasing, and nothing half-assed.

Negotiations over Oklahoma City's Stage Center stall | News OK

“While we were pleased that they saw enough value in our effort to offer this, their timeline simply didn't match ours,” Zeeck said. “As anyone could guess, a fundraising effort of this magnitude, an estimated $30 million to fully complete the project and open the museum to visitors, requires a much greater time commitment than just a few months.”

Kerry - your continued insistence that $30 million "was just to turn the lights on" is getting pretty disingenuous. You need to realize when you're wrong and just let it go. I'm no example, but I am wrong all the time, if it helps.

[zookeeper]

I'm with Kerry about re-living the whole Stage Center debacle. It's gone - forever. Some of us lament that, but it is what it is.

Spartan, theatre in-the-round is still going strong at the Jewel Box.

[Rover]

City Rep does some in the round too.