OG&E Energy Center

[TheTravellers]

So in this whole debacle, who should we write to/email/call in order to express our disgust at how this has all played out and how they were part of the scam/fiasco/clusterf*** and deserve to be publicly flogged while standing in Lake Rainey Williams during the height of mosquito season? DDRC, City Council, Mayor, Williams, OG&E, all of the above...?

[hoya]

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.

I don't believe in absolute property rights. Most people don't. The law doesn't support the idea either. Rainey Williams lied to buy the land, he lied to the people of this city, and he did it so that a public utility could avoid bad press.

Welcome to America and freedom of the press.

[David]

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.

Yeah, that's pretty solidly BS. There's a reason you have to get building permits and other stuff like that, you don't actually have the right to do whatever you want to your land. Sure, they got approval to tear down the Stage Center, but that also means they had to get approval. Property rights wouldn't mean jack if the city had said no.

[gopokes88]

Yeah, that's pretty solidly BS. There's a reason you have to get building permits and other stuff like that, you don't actually have the right to do whatever you want to your land. Sure, they got approval to tear down the Stage Center, but that also means they had to get approval. Property rights wouldn't mean jack if the city had said no.

He has the right to apply for the permit. He got the permit. He tore down SC. His plan for towers fell through.

[gopokes88]

I don't believe in absolute property rights. Most people don't. The law doesn't support the idea either. Rainey Williams lied to buy the land, he lied to the people of this city, and he did it so that a public utility could avoid bad press.

Welcome to America and freedom of the press.

Well he bought the land and was given the go ahead to tear down SC and leave the lot empty. That's the city's fault not his. And sure the press can beat down his door and ask tough questions but he doesn't have to answer any of them if he doesn't want too, which he isn't going to. Rainey did nothing illegal, I don't even think he did anything unethical. He tried to put a project together and it failed.

This is the city's fault pure and simple. They allowed SC to get torn down without a succession plan in place. Would be as simple as saying here's your demo permit, can't start tearing it down until the tower deal is done and cranes are on the way.

[Urban Pioneer]

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city.

I just want to express my excitement for The First National Center.

While this fiasco reminds me of some sort of sordid cross between a episode of The Simpsons, South Park, and Parks and Recreation, it is NOT the end of the world.

Its a modern Greek urban tragedy undoubtedly. The absurdity of a certain City official and a heralded local reporter carrying the corporate boosterism pails of water isn't lost on me.

However, isn't it possible that this abject failure may buoy better development proposals for the site 3 - 5 years out and actually preserve, GASP, a essential core block for higher and better use beyond anything we have seen yet?

I think our City has it's best days ahead.

[bchris02]

However, isn't it possible that this abject failure may buoy better development proposals for the site 3 - 5 years out and actually preserve, GASP, a essential core block for higher and better use beyond anything we have seen yet?

I think our City has it's best days ahead.

I would gladly settle for a Steelyard type development on that site and believe it would provide more vitality than this project would have, even if it doesn't alter the skyline.

[betts]

This is the city's fault pure and simple. They allowed SC to get torn down without a succession plan in place. Would be as simple as saying here's your demo permit, can't start tearing it down until the tower deal is done and cranes are on the way.

Which is precisely what most people at the hearings were ultimately asking for. Even Preservation Oklahoma, once the group realized Rainey was going to get what he wanted, was asking publicly that demolition at least be delayed until construction was imminent. Multiple people brought up this very scenario. One of the board members (can't remember her name), at least gave the appearance of wavering because of concerns that the development might not occur. The Board really should be ashamed they were so easily led. Betsy Brunsteter gets a pass, since she had to recuse herself and could not vote, and my avatar is her drawing.

[Urban Pioneer]

Can they rescind and offer this land to Milhaus?

[David]

I would gladly settle for a Steelyard type development on that site and believe it would provide more vitality than this project would have, even if it doesn't alter the skyline.

Yeah, now we have a clear lot in the middle of downtown right next to the Myriad, and plenty of local developers are building mid-rise housing. If the OG&E towers completely do not happen, if the hiatus turns into a cancelled, I would be more than happy to see a Steelyard style development eventually go up in its place. Kerry might just get his wish for residential overlooking the park.

You don't need highrise towers to more fully activate the streets and park.

[Questor]

So what I was so upset about the other day is a general complaint that I have with my city's planners, OKC city government, our state government, and all the usuals: they're so ****ing hard-headed.

Life will go on, but it's extremely aggravating to see us make the same dumb mistakes we did decades ago and do nothing about it. I would encourage everyone to contact their councilman and suggest changes to the process.

What makes me mad is that I have attended many, many council and planning meetings in my own city in the past and it's a real problem that our government officials just don't want to hear anything from us. The state makes that even more clear to everyone, including the cities.

The only way things will get better is if we collaborate, and I don't always see that kind of mindset from our local governments. In fact I don't often see it. Yeah they'll say they want it, but when you watch their reactions and what actually happens most of the time the message is "get lost." That has to change.

[HOT ROD]

I say, 'Lake Lackmeyer' built by prominent OKC developer Rainey Williams and funded by OGE Energy.

"Hey, he did promise to build something World Class that OKC could be proud of. ..." We should be so greatful!

[bombermwc]

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

Spartan will continue to tell me I'm an idiot for saying this, but I just don't agree with that. There was and continued to be no future for Stage Center. It's NEVER been a successful business venture and has been on the verge of falling apart financially as long as it's been around. The problem is that it's a collection of a bunch of amateur theater groups, none of which could attract enough money in ticket sales to counter their costs (including the facility use). As crappy as the Freede Little Theater is, at least it has municipal support. The space was AWFUL in terms of how it used the space and was incredibly inefficient. If you were a fan of the architecture, fine. But let's also be realistic in the fact that in terms of practical use, the place sucked...flat out. The lack of shared space for simple things like lobby/backstage/etc areas caused a lot of issues with logistics. On the rare occasion that you'd have more than one event at the place, well good luck with that. Has anyone that throws all these comments actually ever spent any time IN the place??????? My guess is that you haven't and only drove by or maybe walked by it during the arts festival. Even those that performed inside it, do not have any love loss for the place being gone. It's been years (since the flood) since anyone had performed at all in the space anyway. And let's not also forget that the flood was caused (repeatedly over the years) because of the design of the place. When you put together your Tinker Toys and try to build it later, you end up with a failed Jetson's building.

So what do we have right now? We have a lot that's been freed of a damaged structure that had absolutely zero chance of being renovated. We have a project that was doomed before it was started because of the unrealistic expectations of TIF money from a crappy developer. We have a prime space downtown that has been freed up from a big sucking sound with chained up doors and homeless problems. Yeah, we have a block of dirt. Guess what? That block of dirt wont stay dirt. It's not the lot in downtown with the easiest ability to develop. it's going to be where the next thing will go. My bet is that OG&E will still build there, but they'll just have to find a new developer to partner with.

[Pete]

In case there was any doubt in the Oklahoman's complicity in this ruse and how they always, always put the interests of big business (and their main advertisers) ahead of the general public:

Stalled OGE development a reminder of energy prices' impact on Oklahoma | NewsOK.com


Stalled OGE development a reminder of energy prices' impact on Oklahoma
By The Oklahoman Editorial Board | January 13, 2016

LAMENTATIONS from preservationists have begun. Their beloved, architecturally unique Stage Center was demolished because …

… Because private developers wanted the site for a four-tower commercial complex, the plans for which are officially on hold. These included a new headquarters building for OGE Energy Corp. On Monday, OGE said it must suspend the plans because market conditions are unfavorable.

It was the latest cautionary signpost on a route to lower expectations in the energy-driven Oklahoma economy. Other metrics include the gaping hole in the state budget, the New York Stock Exchange delisting of SandRidge Energy Inc. and the city of Oklahoma City's declining sales tax revenue.

What irks preservationists, understandably (to a point), is that Stage Center is gone and can't be brought back but the thing that was supposed to replace it seems gone as well. But one development is permanent and the other, we feel sure, is temporary.

Lest we forget, Stage Center, a community theater complex designed by architect John Johansen, was in serious disrepair. Had the OGE development not
materialized, Stage Center might still be standing. But it also would still be falling apart because no one had a plan to save it. Even if they had, the extant economic woes would likely have reduced contributions for any nonprofit endeavor.

Also noteworthy is that the redevelopment plan was thoroughly vetted. OGE and others involved in the plan went through hoops to get it approved before Stage Center was carted away in pieces.

Oil prices slid again Monday, the day the OGE decision was unveiled, and that caused yet another slide in the stock market. Oklahoma's economy thrived by the energy industry and is now suffering because of it.

This is an industry enured to feast and famine. The current downturn has lasted longer and dived deeper than anyone could have predicted a couple of years ago. The price of any commodity — and oil and natural gas are commodities as much as wheat and cotton — is subject to great swings. Decisions are made according to the best information available at the time. This includes decisions to pull back as well as to expand.

When the Stage Center site came into play, oil prices were as high as $100 a barrel, compared with around $30 today. Given such a precipitous drop, it's a wonder the local economy and jobless rate aren't worse or that development in the central city hasn't come to a total standstill.

Instead, this seems to be a bump in the road — albeit a serious one — in the reconstruction of downtown Oklahoma City. However it's worth noting that same day of the OGE announcement came news that First National Center has a new buyer, with plans to convert the building into a mix of apartments and a hotel. And OGE's leaders are determined to have a first-class headquarters building among the structures to replace the entire Stage Center footprint.

The OGE development was already morphing from the original plan, owing to developments not directly related to the oil price slump. A failure to reach agreement on tax increment financing was also complicating the start of construction. The site has been cleared for more than a year; it may remain so for years to come.

The rub for preservationists is that massive downtown demolitions in the past (as part of an ambitious urban renewal plan) didn't always result in promises kept. They can use this argument to fight future redevelopment proposals, but they can't make the case that Stage Center had any future at all.

The site's highest and best use remains within the private sector's domain — perhaps with help from public-sector incentives.

[ABryant]

Perhaps the picture in the heading should be replaced with a picture of the lake.

[bchris02]

^^^ Ridiculous.

If this was really about oil prices, ClayCo should have had absolutely no problem starting construction when oil was still $100/bbl, without that monumental TIF. Blaming oil prices lets them get by without asking the tough questions to Rainey Williams, City Hall, and whoever else may have been complicit in this.

[Pete]

Of course they don't mention that the entire project was predicated on absurd public assistance which was never realistic.

What killed this project was that the City didn't just fork over 10's of millions of free money.

Pretty hard to justify when almost the exact same project was being built directly across the street and at the same time with zero public assistance.


They also conveniently leave out the fact that Rainey Williams made multiple promises for a "world class development" which they happily printed, their lead business writer constantly defended him and now he is merely (ostensibly) just transferring this land to OG&E, and they never once attempted to interview him when this whole thing started to turn south.

[bchris02]

I am looking forward to the OKC Central Chat with Steve Lackmeyer this Friday, if he doesn't call it off, knowing the kind of questions he is going to get.

[Pete]

BTW, absolutely no coincidence that the Oklahoman put these two stories (OG&E and First National) on the same day.

And then, the editorial turns around and cites that happy coincidence as a reason not to be too harsh on the OG&E situation.

[BDP]

His plan for towers fell through.

Actually his plans for public assistance fell through. So this was never a purely "private property" play.

[Laramie]

Unless you build a solid cathedral like structure or something comparable to the First National Center, don't expect it to be there forever.

Oklahoma City probably could have saved the old Criterion Theater & Baum Building; along with the old Biltmore, maybe if someone (with deep pockets) was willing to shell out some cash to preserve those iconic structures.

What we did save was our jewel of hotels, the Skirvin (along with its heritage & ghosts). We renovated and upgraded our beautiful Civic Center (Thelma Gaylord Performing Arts Hall) into the gem of its heyday when it was the Municipal Auditorium.

Stage Center (IIRC) had major repair concerns to make it functional.

It's sad to think, but these buildings are gone--cremated through demolition. All we can do is hope to replace them with a better structure.

Foot soldiers & watchdogs will have to challenge these sub-par developments and demand greater accountability for the better use of those parcels.

OG&E has chose to put its proposed structure on hold, review its options. The whole development idea is somewhat of a gamble with cities that approve the developments. There are no guarantees that developers won't cut corners to achieve their promised outlook results.

[gopokes88]

Actually his plans for public assistance fell through. So this was never a purely "private property" play.

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers.

That was always the plan, wasn't a great mystery. Heck the fact he was basically the cover for OGE to get a shiny new office tower while crying poverty and needing rate increases wasn't a secret.

Problem was there was gaps in each step because the city didn't do its job. Should have gone like this
Buy SC land
Demo SC and get financing
Move into new towers.

To a few posters around here, my hats off to you. You saw this one coming from a mile way and urged the city not to allow demo until financing and everything else was done. At least with 499 they demo'ed and the crane arrived like a week later.

[BDP]

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers

Right. So it never was purely a private venture. Which actually means the city had more leverage than usual, but no one seemed to think to use it.

[hoya]

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers.

That was always the plan, wasn't a great mystery. Heck the fact he was basically the cover for OGE to get a shiny new office tower while crying poverty and needing rate increases wasn't a secret.

Problem was there was gaps in each step because the city didn't do its job. Should have gone like this
Buy SC land
Demo SC and get financing
Move into new towers.

To a few posters around here, my hats off to you. You saw this one coming from a mile way and urged the city not to allow demo until financing and everything else was done. At least with 499 they demo'ed and the crane arrived like a week later.

Oh, I'm not happy with the city on this either. There's plenty of scorn to go around. Lackmeyer, the Oklahoman, everybody deserves some blame on this.

I had mixed feelings on Stage Center. I didn't love it, but it was kind of neat. But it was way better than just a fenced off pond.

[bchris02]

I really liked the idea of Stage Center as a children's museum, and don't understand why more people couldn't get behind that. It only would have taken about $20 million and would have been excellent for the city.

Some people's absolute hatred for the Stage Center has caused them to not see the principle behind this matter. The city dropped the ball by letting Rainey Williams demolish the Stage Center before financing was in place for his project. As gopokes said above, at least with 499, financing was in place before demolition and the crane arrived soon after.