OG&E Energy Center

[PhiAlpha]

But it is one in a long history of failed developments. It's that thing about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think if downtown wasn't full of scars caused by this exact same thing, it would be different. But I guess it does make sense that people who didn't care about the history of our architecture wouldn't care about the history of our mistakes too.

Historically, yes, a long list of failed developments, but recently what can you add to that list other than the stage center? How many buildings have been cleared with the promise of another development and then nothing built?

[soonerguru]

Woe is me, let's go jump off a bridge. Jesus.

Relax man. No one is jumping. But you're being very Pollyannaish if you think everything is just peachy in OK right now.

[HangryHippo]

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Right!? I mean, this is the only time this has ever happened in OKC so there's no reason to be concerned about the city's processes.

I guess concerned citizens that would like to see some of OKC's history preserved should consider the current debacle in isolation and ignore the fact it's a repeated failure of city leadership. Thanks David.

[BDP]

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Not at all. It's just a pragmatic look at the situation in the context of the city's history of demolition for unfunded projects. We could just ignore it and not change anything, but that's exactly why this happened, right? I'm not sure why it bothers you that some are just trying to get a positive change as a result of the situation. It would never have affected any of the projects that have been built, just the ones like this one where they didn't even have the means to complete the project when the permits were given.

So, it's not as much "sky is falling", as it is trying to avoid the pitfalls of a Pollyanna approach.

[PhiAlpha]

Relax man. No one is jumping. But you're being very Pollyannaish if you think everything is just peachy in OK right now.

Not peachy. Just not near as comically dire as half the people here are making it out to be. I think you and some others here are being far, far too pessimistic.

At any rate, taking a "sky is falling" approach, complaining about the situation on a message board and actually doing something constructive are two completely different things. There is very little constructive thought being provided here, though some, like BDP, are actually taking a level headed approach to their annoyance with the situation.

[betts]

I just think, just like I always thought, that it sucks that people allowed the destruction of the Stage Center, for what was not a sure thing at the time, and has been proven to not have been a sure thing. If nothing else, the Stage Center was a world class piece of public art. We've replaced it with a fenced in mud puddle. Now I'm waiting for some slapdash asphalt and a "Pay to Park" sign next. I have no idea if things are as bad as some people say or as hopeful as others think. I think we were stupid to listen to a young pup with no experience (or money) behind him. We do not seem to learn from our mistakes either.

[Pete]

The problem is that any time anything is demolished, there is never any guarantee after that.

Even if you have building permits and financing lined up, projects come off the rails for all sorts of reasons.

So, I think it's a waste of energy to think in terms of trading something for something else. What we are always doing is determining if something is worth saving or not regardless of what may or may not replace it.

[David]

Are some of you guys not reading the same thread full of doomsaying that I am? Sure, not all of you are taking the approach that I am criticizing (aka, the "move to Houston" idea), but enough have been that it is deeply annoying. For example, the comment immediately before mine:

BDP is completely right. It isn't about just this one development. It's about a broken process that has lead to gaping holes in downtown OKC over the decades and nearly killed downtown in the 1960s through the 1980s. Stage Center was a polarizing development and not everybody liked it, but this could easily happen to a beloved architectural treasure. It has countless times before and until policies are put into place to prevent it, there is a risk of it happening again. Personally, I think OKC is very lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward. That could have very easily been another similar story that would have sparked far more outrage given what was lost.

We're lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward? It is a completely different development and a completely different scenario, luck had nothing to do with it.

[bchris02]

The problem is that any time anything is demolished, there is never any guarantee after that.

Even if you have building permits and financing lined up, projects come off the rails for all sorts of reasons.

Correct, but it could minimize the risk of this happening. Had such a policy been in place, requiring a building permit tied to demolition, Stage Center would still be standing.

There always will be the one-off chance that financing could fall through after demolition and a building permit has been issued. It happens in cities all across the country. But its a lot more rare that a deal makes it that far and then collapses.

Whether or not something is worth saving, in this city it all depends on whether or not the big boys with the money think its worth saving. If Larry Nichols wants something gone, it will be gone.

[Pete]

Correct, but it could minimize the risk of this happening. Had such a policy been in place, requiring a building permit tied to demolition, Stage Center would still be standing.

They could have easily obtained a building permit if that had been a condition... They had already received design approval and spent a ton of money on architects and engineers.


It's a silly idea that needs to be dropped. It's not going to happen and wouldn't make a difference if it did.

[bchris02]

So I guess its time to simply write this off as an "oops!" and cross fingers hoping the same thing doesn't happen again in a few years when somebody with money comes in with big promises, wanting to tear down something that will likely be more beloved and less polarizing than Stage Center.

[Laramie]

Many of the buildings that were demolished would have eventually met that fate anyway. It's probably a lot less expensive to have the parcels cleared and available for development than to wait on something down the road.

[bchris02]

Many of the buildings that were demolished would have eventually met that fate anyway.

You mean like the Skirvin, Marion, Ambassador Hotel, Fred Jones Assembly, Tower Theatre, Colcord, soon to be First National Center, etc, etc? As long as something is still standing, no matter how dire the situation seems, there is always a chance for renovation and restoration.

[bchris02]

I thought I would post this here as it pertains. Look at what was destroyed to build the Stage Center.

[SoonerDave]

You mean like the Skirvin, Marion, Ambassador Hotel, Fred Jones Assembly, Tower Theatre, Colcord, soon to be First National Center, etc, etc? As long as something is still standing, no matter how dire the situation seems, there is always a chance for renovation and restoration.

Not with the Stage Center, there wasn't. And it's gone.

[SoonerDave]

Okay, I'm going to make a respectful suggestion on this thread - one I will promise to abide myself (no clean hands here) - let's *NOT* turn this thread into ten pages of remorse (or, in my case, rejoicing) about the loss of the Stage Center. It's gone, bad or good, loved or hated, useful or not, it's gone, gone forever, and right now the constructive discussion has to focus on what can happen with the properties going forward. If folks want to lament, celebrate, or argue the SC all over again, that's fine, but let's do it in a different thread.

[Plutonic Panda]

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Your. Best. Post. Ever.

I agree completely. That's why in my post I said that these are only symptoms of problems, not a problem in and of itself. You can treat symptoms even when you might not be able to cure the disease. I also said the good 'ole boy network 4.0 for a reason. I've seen them come and go. Some of it is passed down, but it's a club of elitism and expectations that feel entitled every bit as much as some people think today's young people are. Granted, we can't get our Mummer's/Stage Center back, but we can hold these people accountable and use it as a cautionary tale. Again.

PluPan, I've been where you are - many times. I ended up back here for a reason. It's a neat little city. I understand your frustrations and I would probably, in all honesty, do what you are wanting to do at your age. You should see and do what you can. Things change fast, but you can never get these relatively roots-free years back once it's time you want to settle down. That may be somewhere else, or you may find you really do like it better here than you think today. But, damn, be careful; I worry about you in a lot of ways. Just from your posts. I mean that in a parental kind of way, which of course I am not, but you know what I mean. Whatever you choose now - good luck to you.

Sorry about my negative post. I am not done with hoping this city gets better... I was just super disappointed when I typed that. I believe OKC is changing and for the better, it is just disappointing to see how things are handled here sometimes.

Quite honestly, I'm not so much as disappointed that this happen as I am on how this thing was handled. I think these buildings belong on NW Expressway or Broadway Ext. I didn't think they were the best fit in regards to how urbanism should be in our downtown and I ultimately believe we will get something better on this site.

I also am excited because I really love that little castle looking tower on the south end of the Stage Center lot and think that could make a really cool housing thing for 4-5 units.

This thing coupled with the Ford Center and ultimately the Cox Convention site will become and awesome part of downtown.

[betts]

Okay, I'm going to make a respectful suggestion on this thread - one I will promise to abide myself (no clean hands here) - let's *NOT* turn this thread into ten pages of remorse (or, in my case, rejoicing) about the loss of the Stage Center. It's gone, bad or good, loved or hated, useful or not, it's gone, gone forever, and right now the constructive discussion has to focus on what can happen with the properties going forward. If folks want to lament, celebrate, or argue the SC all over again, that's fine, but let's do it in a different thread.

I think that's fine, but I don't think any constructive or destructive discussion here will have a twit worth of influence on what ultimately happens. I did everything I knew to do to keep the Stage Center from being demolished and I failed. I have no earthly idea what I could do to make sure that piece of property becomes something that doesn't continue my regret since I do not have the money to buy it and develop it. Forums are a place to applaud or complain. It's quite clear after what Sandridge did and what Rainey Williams did that we, and very few other people, have any power to effect change short of becoming developers or becoming rich and powerful enough to put pressure on the city that they cannot ignore.

[hoya]

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

[bchris02]

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

I think it's time to officially rename it Lake Rainey Williams.

[hoya]

Truthfully, we need public accountability. That means calling people out and making powerful, wealthy people uncomfortable.

Rainey Willaims needs someone to stick a camera in his face and say "why'd you eff this up, and don't give me that 'falling oil prices' excuse. Why did you tear down Stage Center if you knew you were going to need XYZ dollars of public financing?" Somebody needs to be at his house, today, asking where his 'world class' development is. Asking if he ever had any real plan to see this through. Asking if he was just a front man for OG&E so they could tear down Stage Center without public scrutiny. He needs to be ambushed at his front door by a TV camera crew, and when it's over he needs to be pissed. We need someone to ask OG&E execs those questions too.

We need people who have a public voice, who are willing to make people mad.

[baralheia]

I honestly could not agree more! In general, the media in this city is way too soft on things like this.

[HangryHippo]

Agreed, hoya. There needs to be serious accountability.

[hfry]

Agreed. I was hoping it would start with Steve but he seems more interested in blaming the price of oil. Those that follow him on twitter will know this but a road construction project up on the north side that was seriously over its completed time he complained about everyday for months. He called for accountability from the contractor and the city and did it everyday and frankly I wish he would put that much effort into calling out Rainey Williams and OG&E. When Villa Terresa was about to sell he wrote multiple articles and threatened people on twitter to release more information about the group buying it and their plans to tear it all down. Again, I wish he would put that much effort into holding these people accountable for their blatant lies. Just as Preftakes promised he wouldn't tear down the bus station to Steve and Steve defended him till the very end when demolition permits were filed. He will befriend anyone to get a story and a future scoop. His article today was all OG&E's side of the story of they are really doing a service for the city by waiting to build this right instead of asking the hard questions of why if this was fully funded to begin with did it not get built with or without TIF. I don't want this to be taken as a bashing of Steve because I feel he does write great stories and provides a great service of loving OKC and writing about downtown but where is his passion to call out people here that he does on all sorts of other projects. And with the Oklahoman being own by Phillip Anschutz, a Energy tycoon, I can't help but wonder if this "everything is the price of oil's fault" rhetoric is somehow related to his ownership.

[gopokes88]

Truthfully, we need public accountability. That means calling people out and making powerful, wealthy people uncomfortable.

Rainey Willaims needs someone to stick a camera in his face and say "why'd you eff this up, and don't give me that 'falling oil prices' excuse. Why did you tear down Stage Center if you knew you were going to need XYZ dollars of public financing?" Somebody needs to be at his house, today, asking where his 'world class' development is. Asking if he ever had any real plan to see this through. Asking if he was just a front man for OG&E so they could tear down Stage Center without public scrutiny. He needs to be ambushed at his front door by a TV camera crew, and when it's over he needs to be pissed. We need someone to ask OG&E execs those questions too.

We need people who have a public voice, who are willing to make people mad.

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.