OG&E Energy Center

[SoonerDave]

OK folks, now that we've got this out of our system a little bit, let's consider the situation. While I agree with everyone that it totally sucks that the project is not going forward, keep in mind that OGE said the project is not dead, just on hold. Furthermore, they expanded that by saying they still had employees scattered throughout downtown (including a site that will be consumed by the Central Park and/or Convention Center (I forget which one or if its both), so they need a tower just not one that's 25 floors/500K sq ft.

And while I am totally disgusted that the city allowed Rainey Williams to come in and tear down the Stage Center so quickly and I'm equally upset at OGE for using Rainey as a front man instead of their just coming upfront with their plans - it is nice to see they do value public opinion and are chosing to wait on partnering with a larger tenant before they build the tower(s); this should give us the 25+ floor tower we all want for this piece of land.

OR - 2 years could go by and OGE could sell and build a 400 foot, 22-floor architecturally pleasing Clayco tower near their current property and turn their current building into housing/hotel (which is what should happen in the first place - enrich that part of downtown), and let the Stage Center site be redeveloped along the lines we anticipate the Ford site will be redeveloped. ... Yes, it sucks to wait this long but honestly, this could be the best thing that could have happened to this part of downtown; ensure we get a quality, highrise development rather than BOK Park Plaza disaster zone #2 fronting the elementary school.

What? Optimism and hopefulness? You're not jumping off a bridge? Good *might* come from all this?

Love it Don't pretend to know how it will all turn out, but man, an optimistic view is surely a nice one to read.

[5alive]

^^^^^^

[Spartan]

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

You're a stubborn fool, congrats.

And another..

Won't admit it for a second. Just because this particular project went south has no bearing on the illusory relevance of the SC. SC had proven to be an economically unfeasable albatross no matter how many of the arts crowd genuflect at its memory. The folks and organizations who tried to use it paid the price for its impracticality and obsolescence. Good riddance. Delighted that aspect of this issue is perhaps the archetype of a dead horse.

Stage Center needed $20 million of support to be a children's museum which by the way, nearly every city but us has. OG+E Center needed over $100 million of support in order to be privately owned and leased real estate. You tell me which project is an economically unfeasible albatross. I have no idea the rest of the gibberish in your post.

[SOONER8693]

You're a stubborn fool, congrats.

And another..



Stage Center needed $20 million of support to be a children's museum which by the way, nearly every city but us has. OG+E Center needed over $100 million of support in order to be privately owned and leased real estate. You tell me which project is an economically unfeasible albatross. I have no idea the rest of the gibberish in your post.

Some of you people are forgetting that this Spartan dude walks on water and what he says is gospel. Most of his posts are not gibberish, but, the crying and ranting of a child that did/does not get their way.

[adaniel]

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

[Spartan]

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

$500 million is pretty low for the downtown of a city our size.

[PhiAlpha]

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

This

[Pete]

Our unemployment rate here is still very low.


I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Of course the developer is going to use that excuse but that doesn't make it true. Remember, TEEMCO blamed the price of oil for all it's problems too and the people printing those claims never bothered to look up energy prices then overlay that on the timeline of all their legal and financial problems.

Price of oil sure didn't stop Hines/Devon on their nearly identical project, which started later than this one.

Developers are notorious for coming up for some external excuse as to why they are late, failed or can't even get out of the gates. And why not when the paper will just print their claims without any fact checking or perspective whatsoever?


I said this months ago: Every developer and business that encounters problems are now going to blame oil prices and to merely perpetuate that becomes this ridiculous self-fulfilling prophecy.

[bchris02]

There is a time for optimism and a time for pessimism. A person can be optimistic about the overall direction of OKC while being pessimistic about this deal and the factors and politics that led to it. Without criticism, there will never be a change in thinking and this kind of thing will keep happening.

[Spartan]

Here's my question, and I'm sure I'll be trolled by someone with sooner in their username, but here goes: Have we solved the Mystery Tower yet? Or will we ever?

[Pete]

See if you can post without insulting people then maybe you won't get 'trolled'...


To answer your question, I'm sure it was Clayco who originally big on Stage Center, were rebuffed in favor of Rainey Williams and OG&E, and then were looking for other sites until they attempted to become partners in the Stage Center deal.

[PhiAlpha]

There is a time for optimism and a time for pessimism. A person can be optimistic about the overall direction of OKC while being pessimistic about this deal and the factors and politics that led to it. Without criticism, there will never be a change in thinking and this kind of thing will keep happening.

There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism, the latter of which has been in short supply over the last day or so.

[HangryHippo]

I'd like to see the housing portion of the Clayco deal be built at 4th and EKG.

[David]

There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism, the latter of which has been in short supply over the last day or so.

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

[bchris02]

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

A few posts, but its mostly been lamenting the loss of Stage Center for what appears will be nothing for the foreseeable future. Can the blame be solely placed on OG&E and Rainey Williams? Or...is there a bigger issue with how things operate in this city that led to this? It's a question that needs to be asked.

[PhiAlpha]

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

True. In a thread about 1....one...failed development that was shaky even 2 years ago when proposed, we've now seen disparaging comments about Mary Fallin, Scott Pruitt, the legislature, public schools, Kevin Durant, the thunder, gay marriage, the second coming of the pei plan, earthquakes, the impending mass exodus of people from OKC (one person leaving for the utopia that is Houston), and the inevitable complete and utter failure of OKC's (and OKs) economy due to 1+ year of a less than stellar economic conditions (after 6+ years of excellent economic conditions)... It's annoyingly comical.

[BDP]

I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Yeah, clearly it was unfeasible on it's own from the beginning or, at the very least, the developers didn't have the resources to make it happen on their own. They didn't get their TIF and are now bailing out. That's pretty much it. Do oil prices affect demand for spec office space in OKC? Of course it does, but they bought and tore down Stage Center before they even knew if they would get the public subsidy needed to make it market worthy. Now, I know some people love to hate on Stage Center, but it's really more about the process. This has happened before and could easily happen again to structures that are less divisive and more universally appreciated if the process continues to be the same.

Just about every empty or underused lot downtown is a product of this exact same approach. Downtown became a desolate and undesirable place for decades because of it and it didn't begin to change until renovation and reuse began in Bricktown. We have some nice new developments downtown now, but no one even wanted to be there (certainly not after 5pm) until some realized the potential in the older decaying buildings that were spared. Stage Center may not have been understood by many people, but it was truly one of a kind, which is very rare in Oklahoma City. For that reason alone, it should not have been torn down for a project that never had a way to pay for itself.

[Celebrator]

Looks like we have another opportunity to live the motto: Labor omnia vincit!

[d-usa]

I'm not even just upset about the Stage Center, but the loss of some vibrant activity in the area with no replacement. In addition to the Festival of the Arts, how many little festivals and events did we end up loosing in that area that were generating foot traffic and business in the neighboring restaurants and parks?

[BDP]

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

Maybe, but it's not unjustified. This is not an isolated event. Clearly, it's not as much the norm anymore. A lot of great stuff has gotten built. But this exact scenario is what defined Oklahoma City for a long time and it is unfortunate that, despite all the great advances the city has made, it can still happen. It shows that even in the best of times, the city can still be snowed by grand promises that in reality were just ploys by developers to get public subsidy and if they don't get it they take their ball and go home. We really do need a better way to prevent this kind of deception against the city going forward.

[BDP]

True. In a thread about 1....one...failed development that was shaky even 2 years ago when proposed.

But it is one in a long history of failed developments. It's that thing about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think if downtown wasn't full of scars caused by this exact same thing, it would be different. But I guess it does make sense that people who didn't care about the history of our architecture wouldn't care about the history of our mistakes too.

[bchris02]

BDP is completely right. It isn't about just this one development. It's about a broken process that has lead to gaping holes in downtown OKC over the decades and nearly killed downtown in the 1960s through the 1980s. Stage Center was a polarizing development and not everybody liked it, but this could easily happen to a beloved architectural treasure. It has countless times before and until policies are put into place to prevent it, there is a risk of it happening again. Personally, I think OKC is very lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward. That could have very easily been another similar story that would have sparked far more outrage given what was lost.

[David]

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

[bchris02]

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

The sky isn't falling and there is a lot to be optimistic about in terms of the overall direction of downtown OKC. This specific development, however, is evidence of a very real problem that has plagued downtown for many decades. It would be nice if this could be the catalyst for finally doing something about it.

[2Lanez]

I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Of course the developer is going to use that excuse but that doesn't make it true. Remember, TEEMCO blamed the price of oil for all it's problems too and the people printing those claims never bothered to look up energy prices then overlay that on the timeline of all their legal and financial problems.

Price of oil sure didn't stop Hines/Devon on their nearly identical project, which started later than this one.

Developers are notorious for coming up for some external excuse as to why they are late, failed or can't even get out of the gates. And why not when the paper will just print their claims without any fact checking or perspective whatsoever?


I said this months ago: Every developer and business that encounters problems are now going to blame oil prices and to merely perpetuate that becomes this ridiculous self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yet that's exactly what's happening. The only comments from government in Steve's article were positive-spin comments from Jim Couch. The city isn't holding developers accountable, and journalists aren't holding the city accountable... So I guess we'll just write this off as an 'oops,' and do it again in a few years?