OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

To keep things in perspective, that property has been vacant for a huge portion of the last few decades.

This is not the end of the world.

[Spartan]

C'mon, bchris. Not everything merits the hyperbole. Not even close.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

No, it is literally Pei Plan 2.0. Preftakes demos (mostly for parking), SandRidge demos/crash, clearing C2C, antiquated OKC Blvd design, new convention center, new park, additional focus on the medical center / innovation district, and the loss of a landmark theater.

There is nothing happening that hasn't already happened. This is all déjà vu.

[Celebrator]

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

Oh no. Old bchris02 is back. Queen City ballyhoo incoming.

[Plutonic Panda]

[PhiAlpha]

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

[zookeeper]

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

When you're really young everything bad seems like the end of the world. But, yes, I agree with you - especially your last sentence.

[bchris02]

Oh no. Old bchris02 is back. Queen City ballyhoo incoming.

I had a huge response typed up but I don't want to further derail the thread but I will say this. With a lot of people talking about leaving OKC for one reason or another, its a legitimate question to ask as to how to convince them to stay. Not everyone is tied down and some have the option to live here or somewhere they perceive to be more to their liking and they have to make that choice. When somebody is 22 and graduating college, they have to evaluate whether they want to build their lives in OKC or somewhere else, and weigh the pros and cons of wherever they choose. I chose OKC because of its job market during the Great Recession when in much of the country unemployment rates were still over 10% and people with degrees were waiting tables, and also because of my family. I didn't choose to live here because of the politics or the weather. The urban neighborhoods, which have come a long way since 2012, were low on my priority list. I really didn't take a strong interest in urbanism until I moved back here.

Insulting people considering leaving for what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, to be greener pastures is sure way to drive them away.

Back on topic, the death of this project isn't the end of the world and life goes on. It's disappointing for those who care about the future of this city and was excited for what this project would have added to downtown, but as Pete says, the block has been vacant for decades and now it will simply stay so.

At least First National has sold and that is very exciting and will likely have a much more positive impact on downtown than this project would have even if built.

[gopokes88]

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

Don't be stupid. The progress of downtown skyscrapers is easily in kd's top 5 reasons to stay or go

[G.Walker]

Wow, this is crazy, great job Rainey, way to go! This was shady from the beginning, we knew this was a long shot, bring on the green space, lol, wow.

[PhiAlpha]

With a lot of people talking about leaving OKC for one reason or another.

That seems like a major exaggeration, though your interest in promoting reasons to move/stay here is encouraging.

[HOT ROD]

OK folks, now that we've got this out of our system a little bit, let's consider the situation. While I agree with everyone that it totally sucks that the project is not going forward, keep in mind that OGE said the project is not dead, just on hold. Furthermore, they expanded that by saying they still had employees scattered throughout downtown (including a site that will be consumed by the Central Park and/or Convention Center (I forget which one or if its both), so they need a tower just not one that's 25 floors/500K sq ft.

And while I am totally disgusted that the city allowed Rainey Williams to come in and tear down the Stage Center so quickly and I'm equally upset at OGE for using Rainey as a front man instead of their just coming upfront with their plans - it is nice to see they do value public opinion and are chosing to wait on partnering with a larger tenant before they build the tower(s); this should give us the 25+ floor tower we all want for this piece of land.

OR - 2 years could go by and OGE could sell and build a 400 foot, 22-floor architecturally pleasing Clayco tower near their current property and turn their current building into housing/hotel (which is what should happen in the first place - enrich that part of downtown), and let the Stage Center site be redeveloped along the lines we anticipate the Ford site will be redeveloped. ... Yes, it sucks to wait this long but honestly, this could be the best thing that could have happened to this part of downtown; ensure we get a quality, highrise development rather than BOK Park Plaza disaster zone #2 fronting the elementary school.

[HOT ROD]

Pete, Rainey might have been correct in his quote if you consider the proposal was to build two office towers. But I agree his involvement has been suspect all along and I hate how this all went down to be honest. OGE should have been upfront with their plans and likely could have found a tenant or two to go in the building(s) with them - if they hadn't waited so long with the financing.

[HOT ROD]

As for Sandridge Tower, it might not be such a bad idea for OGE to just take over that tower and let Sandridge go into one of the smaller buildings. ... Yes, I know it would suck from the prospective of not getting a new OGE tower but at least we would no longer need to worry about that property being filled/leased and downtown could get a new spec tower or owner occupied from somebody who really needs the space. I for one, and sick and tired of Kerr McGee/Sandridge tower holding OKC hostage every time the market does a correction.

If OGE went in there, then we would lay that stone to rest once and for all as 480k sq ft is more than enough space for them in a significant high rise and if nothing else, Im sure they could figure out how to keep the lights on. ...

[soonerguru]

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

Hey, but we're going to have a REALLY EFFING NICE PARKING GARAGE facing ANOTHER PARKING GARAGE on one of Downtown's prime corners!

This is just WORLD CLASS in every way.

[soonerguru]

It's obvious that Devon wanted that Bus Station leveled, regardless -- and, it seems, they fought hard to get rid of the Stage Center, too. Some people probably actually think this is a good development. That's how far away those of us here screaming into the night are away from city leadership.

On my recent travels, I've concluded that OKC has lost whatever edge it had for a while. We were so far behind other cities, the changes and improvements seemed dramatic, and they were, but OKC is still behind other cities, and now our economy sucks. Our state economy sucks. Our state leadership is a punchline. Public schools are being closed and teachers face no prospect of ever making a living wage in this state. Higher education is being drained. And we have hitched our wagons 100% to Oil and Gas. Now we're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

I have seen no genuine effort to invest in serious economic development by this governor and legislature. While they argue about gays and guns and promote laughably outmoded economic thinking, they are draining the most important resource we have as a state: our people, particularly our youth, and their education and training. This does not bode well.

There is not much to be excited about, and in fact, there is much to concern any rational human being.

[Spartan]

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

[bombermwc]

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

[PhiAlpha]

It's obvious that Devon wanted that Bus Station leveled, regardless -- and, it seems, they fought hard to get rid of the Stage Center, too. Some people probably actually think this is a good development. That's how far away those of us here screaming into the night are away from city leadership.

On my recent travels, I've concluded that OKC has lost whatever edge it had for a while. We were so far behind other cities, the changes and improvements seemed dramatic, and they were, but OKC is still behind other cities, and now our economy sucks. Our state economy sucks. Our state leadership is a punchline. Public schools are being closed and teachers face no prospect of ever making a living wage in this state. Higher education is being drained. And we have hitched our wagons 100% to Oil and Gas. Now we're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

I have seen no genuine effort to invest in serious economic development by this governor and legislature. While they argue about gays and guns and promote laughably outmoded economic thinking, they are draining the most important resource we have as a state: our people, particularly our youth, and their education and training. This does not bode well.

There is not much to be excited about, and in fact, there is much to concern any rational human being.

Woe is me, let's go jump off a bridge. Jesus.

[PhiAlpha]

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

Honestly I'd rather have the Preftakes block back. I guess an eternally empty stage center would be better than a field, but I would rather the BOK project be on this lot.

[Pete]

BTW, I seriously doubt the timing of this announcement was just coincidental...

I'm sure OG&E wanted to deflect the negative response with the good news of First National Center.



Anyway, apart from the ruse and the intentional deception that has been the hallmark of this project, I'm already over the disappointment.

At best, we were going to get some shadow of what had been most recently proposed and that was nothing to get excited about.

[HangryHippo]

Honestly I'd rather have the Preftakes block back. I guess an eternally empty stage center would be better than a field, but I would rather the BOK project be on this lot.

Agreed. And we didn't have to lose it. That's what's really frustrating.

[SoonerDave]

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

Amen.

[SoonerDave]

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

Won't admit it for a second. Just because this particular project went south has no bearing on the illusory relevance of the SC. SC had proven to be an economically unfeasable albatross no matter how many of the arts crowd genuflect at its memory. The folks and organizations who tried to use it paid the price for its impracticality and obsolescence. Good riddance. Delighted that aspect of this issue is perhaps the archetype of a dead horse.

[king183]

We now know the situation as many suspected from the beginning. Instead of acting like the sky is falling, we should take stock of the lessons we've learned from this and agree to not forget them. So what are those lessons? I'd start with these, and you can add your own:

1) The city's planning leaders have a clear bias against urban planning. They will allow the gutting of much of downtown, not based on good planning and development guidelines, but simply based on whose name and money is attached to the project. The fact that the name and money is driving planning decisions at city hall should be concerning.

2) Have a great deal of skepticism toward local news reporters who demean message boards and claim higher knowledge than everyone else. Statements like if you don't think Rainey Williams can get this project done, you don't know Rainey Williams was in direct response to the rightful skepticism many on this message board had given the circumstances surrounding the sell of the property and the subsequent announced plans.

3) There is much more than oil and energy driving OKC's economy these days and entrepreneurs are out there to keep things going strong. No doubt the next couple years will be tough relative to the last five, but it's not the total collapse some seem to believe has occurred. First National has the potential to become a great gem again.

[bchris02]

I think at this point, SOMEBODY needs to be held accountable for allowing the Stage Center to be demolished prior to a deal being done for its replacement.

Like it or not, Stage Center was an internationally recognized work of art. It was non-functional and bad urbanism and I have no issues with it being replaced, but to destroy it for what has been a mud pit for quite some time and now looks like it will be that or green space for the forseeable future is something that needs to be addressed.

It's essential that this conversation be had in order to preserve what little history this city has left. Developers can't be allowed to come in with big promises, demolish something historic, and then walk away leaving OKC with nothing. Stage Center isn't the first time this has happened and it won't be the last if something isn't done to address it.