OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

That would be great. We could replicate the urban planning failure of the Cox, on a different side of the park.

If it hadn't been for the price, they would have happily moved it to the south side of the park. That was the plan they worked very hard to make happen.

[SoonerDave]

Let's please not give these people any ideas. I have recently come to the conclusion that MAPS 3 is a disaster and I'm honestly concerned whether the convention center will get completely finished and they keep delaying this thing time and time again. It's affected the streetcar, funding for other projects, I mean they have made it clear MAPS 3 was specifically designed for the convention center.

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

[BDP]

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

Yeah, maybe we should just say it finishes what the Pei Plan started.

[Patrick]

C'mon, bchris. Not everything merits the hyperbole. Not even close.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

Really when you consider that an entire block was cleared for the OGE Center and then another entire city clock was cleared for the BOK Center, he's not too far off. That's a lot of property that was cleared right in the middle of the CBD.

[HangryHippo]

Yeah, maybe we should just say it finishes what the Pei Plan started.

This.

[Plutonic Panda]

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

I doesn't surprise me now, but when MAPS 3 was being considered and ultimately passed, I did not think it was for the convention center. I have learned many new things since then and from what I have witnessed happen with MAPS3, it's made itself clear what it was really for.

[zookeeper]

This is only a symptom of what amounts to the 'Ole Boy Network' 4.0.
From an internationally recognized structure that added quirky archetecture to the quilt of Oklahoma City to - this. Wow.

[Questor]

I just feel so... Defeated... By all of this. Pretty much everything I said I really hoped wouldn't happen in the Stage Center thread has come to pass. It was so obvious what we were doing was exactly the same kind of unguaranteed nonsense that got us into trouble during the Pei Plan era.

We've replaced a world-renowned architectural piece with a big muddy pond with no plans to develop on it anytime soon. And we've destroyed the last remaining elements of our Main Street heritage to boot.

I'm afraid this is the day I have given up on Oklahoma City.

[Plutonic Panda]

This is only a symptom of what amounts to the 'Ole Boy Network' 4.0.
From an internationally recognized structure that added quirky archetecture to the quilt of Oklahoma City to - this. Wow.

Yeah. I'm pretty much done with hoping this city gets better. It is, but nothing changes on large scale.

With the state proposing a new ban on gay marriage, this, the earthquakes, I don't want to make it sound like the sky is falling because it certainly isn't, but this place sucks right now. I talk to so many people who feel the same way. Was in Deep Deuce talking with a lady from London who can't wait to get out of here and move to San Francisco. I have conversations like that with people all the time. I'm even leaving back out to Cali earlier than I had planned because I feel like I'm loosing my mind here.

Perhaps once I get older I'll find beauty in my home city that I want to see grow prosper, but right now I can't handle this insanity.

[Anonymous.]

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

[zookeeper]

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Your. Best. Post. Ever.

I agree completely. That's why in my post I said that these are only symptoms of problems, not a problem in and of itself. You can treat symptoms even when you might not be able to cure the disease. I also said the good 'ole boy network 4.0 for a reason. I've seen them come and go. Some of it is passed down, but it's a club of elitism and expectations that feel entitled every bit as much as some people think today's young people are. Granted, we can't get our Mummer's/Stage Center back, but we can hold these people accountable and use it as a cautionary tale. Again.

PluPan, I've been where you are - many times. I ended up back here for a reason. It's a neat little city. I understand your frustrations and I would probably, in all honesty, do what you are wanting to do at your age. You should see and do what you can. Things change fast, but you can never get these relatively roots-free years back once it's time you want to settle down. That may be somewhere else, or you may find you really do like it better here than you think today. But, damn, be careful; I worry about you in a lot of ways. Just from your posts. I mean that in a parental kind of way, which of course I am not, but you know what I mean. Whatever you choose now - good luck to you.

[bchris02]

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

[C_M_25]

My understanding is that devon was planning on leasing a huge chunk of office space in this building. They are out of room in the new tower. However, with the lull in oil prices, their appetite for spending this money probably went away. If the developers of this building were planning on that extra money, then it makes sense as to why this deal fell through.

[Pete]

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

I didn't read the rest of what you wrote because I do this all the time and here's what I say...


OKC is up and coming with plenty to do, good restaurants and bars and incredibly friendly people.

It's also the most inclusive place I've ever visited. Business and citizens help each other out rather than compete and all in aid of making the City better. It's a crazy pro-business climate and you wont' find many places with more civic pride.

It's also super easy to get involved in meaningful civic movements, the arts, and all types of other areas. Also super easy to meet and get to know people in general.

It's a very easy place to live, not only from a cost of living standpoint but due to very little traffic and most people being pleasant everywhere you go.

You can live in a beautiful home in the suburbs or rent a cool apartment downtown and walk everywhere with tons of people out every night of the week.


And finally, I tell them that after 25 years in Southern California, I've been very happy since moving back and beside the ocean, there isn't much there I can't find here... And I actually end up doing more here because it's affordable and easy to get around and people aren't working 70 hours a week.

[TU 'cane]

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Ahem, in the Current Events sub forum I started a thread about what we're going to do to make 2016 a better place in Oklahoma.
I encourage anyone interested to go and use it as a page to network and spread ideas that will help our towns, cities, and state as a whole.

Too much whining abounds everywhere but what are we actually doing to try and make the situation better?

Also, I'm just as disappointed in today's announcement, I think anyone following this thread probably knows that. I was really looking forward to the revised plans. It's a shame, and SC should have never been demo'd, but we can't change the past, can we? We can only move forward. So, to those who are going as far as suggesting or hinting that they're completely done with OKC or that this is the doom of the city, I have one piece of constructive, but harsh advice: get up and get over yourselves.

OKC has become and is still becoming a destination city for many. OKC is!!!
It's still young and developing, give it time. In the meantime, get out and make the community better. Quit waiting on government to do it, some things are better left off to us common folk anyway.

Plus, despite what happened on the block to the North, we'll have a nice and sleek 27 floor tower to sit right next to the pinnacle of the skyline here in a couple years. So it's not all doom and gloom.

[dankrutka]

Love the positive comments concerning change in the face of a disappointing set back. There is a general (not complete) consensus towards good urbanism on this site. What about an OKCTalk activist group that works with other organizations to address issues around where there is some consensus?

[securityinfo]

Sadly, my prediction has come true. We traded an art piece for a mud pit, or at best a parking lot. Next up: property to be sold at substantial discount to local "investors", as the property is now clearly no longer valuable. Shades of the '60's and '70's.

/si

[Mr. Cotter]

A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

Good grief. Your friend either doesn't understand the local politics of OKC or doesn't understand the local politics of Houston.

[Pete]

I'll be even more upset if they turn it into a parking lot but that's probably is what is going to happen for at least a few years.

[gopokes88]

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

Well your friend is 22 so that's about the level of decision making for that age.

If he is trying to escape bad politics, I'd suggest being an anarchist to him. I promise you Oklahoma has no monopoly on idiot politicians. I've met a state politician who legitmately couldn't read. (Not an OK one either).

[bradh]

Good grief. Your friend either doesn't understand the local politics of OKC or doesn't understand the local politics of Houston.

Plus Houston is about to be broke, it's staring at a humongous pension problem that politicians have just bee kicking down the road since I was a kid growing up there in the 80's.

[bradh]

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

Better never see you or PluPan at the Riversport Rapids if you're so disgusted.

[kukblue1]

First Sandridge can't get anyone into their building. Now this project is a bust. Soon Kevin Durant will be leaving. Our city is dying before our eyes.

[Pete]

First Sandridge can't get anyone into their building. Now this project is a bust. Soon Kevin Durant will be leaving. Our city is dying before our eyes.

Except it was just announced First National Center is being redeveloped (finally) and there are about 150 great urban projects underway or soon to start.

[bchris02]

Sadly, my prediction has come true. We traded an art piece for a mud pit, or at best a parking lot. Next up: property to be sold at substantial discount to local "investors", as the property is now clearly no longer valuable. Shades of the '60's and '70's.

/si

Yeah the worst part about this is it sounds like the land won't be in play for quite some time. I would love to see a quick turnaround and a new development proposed. It may not be a highrise, but something like the Steelyard fronting the park would be a total win. I don't want it to sit as a mud pit or a parking lot.