Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[CarlessInOKC]

Even the BRT concepts released lately have their fingerprints on them.

What do you mean by this?

[Urban Pioneer]

Well first, "true "BRT" has exclusive lanes and absolute signal priority. You are essentially treating a bus like a train. It has a built in advantage as being treated as a High Occupancy Vehicle.

I never thought we would get this as long as ODOT is involved. Their priority is automobile movement. Apparently, they retain some sort of tangential control over NW Expressway even though the City is largely involved in maintaining the roadway and should have some degree of influence on how the greater Right-of-Way can be used.

On it's face, I think the planners want to give the bus precedence. It seems though that the way the BRT is highlighted on Classen is much more subdued on NW Expressway. On Classen, they are proposed an exclusive bus lane that is painted. On NW Expressway, the only precedence is the isolated stops. It is operating without visual preference in mixed traffic.

If you study the plans carefully, it is obvious that the planners are working with much more flexibility in the city controlled areas versus the ODOT controlled areas in trying to give the bus an advantage over cars.

With all that stated, express bus needs to happen. This would be an easy transit project that Maps 4 Neighborhoods or the GO Bond could fund.

My point largely reflects that installing light rail up NW Expressway would be my preference, but you are already seeing the obstacles given to BRT. It is illustrative of the challenges that remain to sweeping change to concepts like light rail.

I will be writing on these more and I will be fighting for a key items in the next few months that remove some of these obstacles to better transit.

[Urbanized]

Though it has been swallowed up by the city, NW Expressway remains a state highway. It is SH3, the longest highway in Oklahoma, stretching from SE Oklahoma to the tip of the panhandle.

[Just the facts]

Every time I go over there, I think about how it's too bad that the area is as sprawled out as it is. I'd love to see that area be retrofitted into a more urban layout.

The problem is that the retro-fitting has to come first or mass transit will fall on its face, and the cost to retro-fit NWE is cost prohibitive and would take decades. Since this area will eventaul suffer the abandonment all sprawl succums to we don't have decades. It really is a day late and a dollar short. MAPS for neighborhoods should probably focus on sprawl retirement and prairie restoration.

[Rover]

If rail extends up Classen to the PennSq/Bell Isle shopping area at some point, then a later extension up NWE to May would be a good extension. No chance it goes farther up NWE than May. NWE and May area is not in the doomsday decline JTF would like to see happen, it is actually doing quite well. May from NWE to Britton is seeing lots of investement and development with people investing greatly in updating and extending existing housing.

Sorry to break it to JTF, but OKC isn't in a death spiral.

[hoya]

I think going up to NWE and May could work. From May over to Lake Hefner Parkway and from 50th up to 63rd could be refitted into a very nice urban district. If we extended a light rail line up there, that would need to be part of the deal -- rezone it and begin retrofitting the area.

[mugofbeer]

People are saying that OKC is 20 years behind other cities that have installed rail systems. I would have to probably agree. However, mass transit systems dont get put in over a 6 month period. It may take 20 years to plan, gather cash and start building. From my experience with living in Dallas and Denver is 1) dont install too many stations 2) make parking as convenient as possible and 3) encourage private developments at stations so the developers build the stations as part of their urban centers. The old school of thought is the transit lines hurt property values and are noisy. The reality is exactly the opposite.

[Just the facts]

Peace out Rover.

[Teo9969]

If we want rail going up NW Expressway then a major transportation station needs to be located on the NW or SW block of NW/Expressway and Classen. We can't run the tram under I-44 going to CHK and ignore the intersection. Acquiring the land probably needs to be a part of MAPS 4 or absolute priority of the RTA. It needs to be rolled into the cost of the line we run from downtown to 63rd/Western.

And it could go a LONG way toward retrofitting the Belle Isle to be more urban.





OKC clearly needs to find out ways to subsidize garages in places like the Wal-Mart/Nord-Rack/Babies-R-US/etc parking lots, so that the land can then be used to retrofit the area. And a retrofit will have a far great chance at success if there is a station that connects to the core and another major area of employment throughout the city.

[Teo9969]

I say that because I think BRT is going to have to prove to be successful along NW Expressway before the city ever really considers running rail that direction, and BRT is not going to be successful if there is not a quality connectivity point for transfer service into the rail system.

[zookeeper]

If we want rail going up NW Expressway then a major transportation station needs to be located on the NW or SW block of NW/Expressway and Classen. We can't run the tram under I-44 going to CHK and ignore the intersection. Acquiring the land probably needs to be a part of MAPS 4 or absolute priority of the RTA. It needs to be rolled into the cost of the line we run from downtown to 63rd/Western.

And it could go a LONG way toward retrofitting the Belle Isle to be more urban.

OKC clearly needs to find out ways to subsidize garages in places like the Wal-Mart/Nord-Rack/Babies-R-US/etc parking lots, so that the land can then be used to retrofit the area. And a retrofit will have a far great chance at success if there is a station that connects to the core and another major area of employment throughout the city.

The first look we had at a potential layout seemed to have (if I am remembering correctly) some kind of station, of some sort, at Northwest Expressway and Blackwelder. Would that be used for transfers and such?

[Teo9969]

I mean, I suppose that could be done, but if we put it at NWX & Classen, then the Classen route has direct service and anything that goes up NW Expressway would have direct service as well. I don't think you would lay tracks up to Blackwelder from Classen.

But honestly, I'm thinking of this being a big-time station on the NW corner: 6 to 10 stories (American Fidelity on the other side of Classen is 6 stories) The bottom floor would be the station, and floors 1 and 2 could have restaurant/retail.

The rest would be office and/or residential, and a Garage would be built behind Milagros that serves the Station, Milagros, and IHOP so that the parking lots that front Classen could be retrofitted with more retail.

[Urban Pioneer]

Evidently there is some sort of article today. This from twitter.

MAPS 4 ideas move ahead without direction from city officials | The Journal Record

[gopokes88]

Speaking of Maps 4,

What if we had a section for flights? Subsidize 10 new routes to 10 new cities. Subsidies for 2 years to build to the route. The ones that grow and make profit the airlines will likely keep once the subsidy expires. The aviation guys on the board will have much more creative ways to get it done then I.

[warreng88]

Evidently there is some sort of article today. This from twitter.

MAPS 4 ideas move ahead without direction from city officials | The Journal Record

MAPS 4 ideas move ahead without direction from city officials

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record January 7, 2016 1 Comment

OKLAHOMA CITY – The grass-roots momentum for the next tax-funded package of citywide improvement projects under the MAPS banner has surprised city officials, but they’re not complaining.

Early ideas for the next Metropolitan Area Projects have coalesced around a theme that seems to be a reaction against MAPS 3, which included $777 million to build a 70-acre city park, a larger convention center, riverside improvements and several other projects. Participants are calling the new movement MAPS 4 Neighborhoods, organizer Jonathon Dodson said, because it places less emphasis on the central part of the city and more on community connectivity, health and culture.

“Our goal is to have half of funds in our next MAPS go specifically towards neighborhoods across the city,” the group’s Facebook profile states. “We’re looking for new ideas, great ideas. This is just a start to get us talking about what we want to see. Join in the conversation.”

Dodson said projects being discussed at community meetings include more sidewalks, beautification, bike lanes, an expanded bus system, school menus and public spaces. And most of the energy is coming from neighborhood associations, he said.

A City Hall spokeswoman expressed concern this week that the MAPS 4 Neighborhoods movement’s promotional materials might be misconstrued as being sanctioned by the municipal government.

Frequent MAPS 4 Neighborhoods community meetings are well-organized, and announcements carry a professionally designed color logo. The next meeting is scheduled for 6 p.m. Jan. 11 at Ralph Ellison Library, 2000 NE 23rd St.

But Mayor Mick Cornett said he is OK with that, and he wants to see how the effort pans out. The process to collectively define bond issue goals is taking off in the same manner as MAPS 3, although this time it’s not receiving direction from public officials.

“At this point, no idea is a bad idea,” Cornett said. “If you remember, with MAPS 3 we asked for input and we got 1,800 ideas submitted. We want as inclusive a process as we can. And to the extent that they want to get in front and put their ideas in place first, I think that’s healthy.”

Cornett also pointed out that the current MAPS projects aren’t close to being finished yet, so the timeline leading to the next bond issue is likely to be years long.

Voters passed the original MAPS plan in 1993 as a temporary 1-cent sales tax, later extending it six months to reach a $350 million target. Projects included construction of the Bricktown Canal and renovations to what’s now known as the Cox Convention Center.

In 2001, voters came back and supported OCMAPS, also called MAPS for Kids, to raise $700 million for school district infrastructure improvements. In 2009, residents approved MAPS 3 to raise $777 million.

[onthestrip]

Speaking of Maps 4,

What if we had a section for flights? Subsidize 10 new routes to 10 new cities. Subsidies for 2 years to build to the route. The ones that grow and make profit the airlines will likely keep once the subsidy expires. The aviation guys on the board will have much more creative ways to get it done then I.

Nah, Im good. MAPS should be for typical capital projects, tangible things, but not for subsidizing something that the market cant sustain itself. Because you arent going to "build" demand for a plane route. Essentially this would be taking taxpayer money and giving it to an airline. Ill take arenas, streetcars, and new schools over plane routes that dont have much demand.

[adaniel]

Completely opposed to any sort of airline subsidy. Oklahoma already went down that road with Great Plains Airlines...the result was not good.

[catch22]

Nah, Im good. MAPS should be for typical capital projects, tangible things, but not for subsidizing something that the market cant sustain itself. Because you arent going to "build" demand for a plane route. Essentially this would be taking taxpayer money and giving it to an airline. Ill take arenas, streetcars, and new schools over plane routes that dont have much demand.

Actually, it's proven that nonstop service actually does build demand on a route. It's called market stimulation.

But MAPS is not the right vehicle to use for airline subsidies.

[catch22]

Completely opposed to any sort of airline subsidy. Oklahoma already went down that road with Great Plains Airlines...the result was not good.

It's different to offer a route subsidy to a network carrier that is stable. Great Plains was a startup airline that didn't work. An important distinction to make.

[Laramie]

Half & Half

Oklahoma City proper has over 600 sq. miles. You could let each quadrant or ward decide how they want to spend $100/$50 million @ 4-8 quadrants/wards which would account for $400 million on MAPS IV, a 7 year - $800 million package collection.



The other $400 million could be used to spend on other items.

[catch22]

The problem with that is you begin to divide the money up into smaller and smaller amounts. The Wards would then have to evenly divide it up between neighborhoods and districts. The result is very small improvements over a broad area.

With MAPS you need to come out with a pretty detailed plan. The City says... If we approve this amount, we can build this, this, and that. And we end up getting a large focused improvement where the whole city benefits as a collective.

[betts]

And who decides? What education/experience should the deciders have? Gathering places are what make neighborhoods desirable. But the good ones are old retail clusters that are being revitalized. To have walkability you have to have places to walk to. How do you create those with MAPS money? At best you would need large districts to each create something or the money is so watered down that there is no impact.

[Just the facts]

The City already offers subsidies to airlines - just sayin.

[gopokes88]

I was just curious if it's something people would maybe support no need to get into a big fuss, I have no power in any of this.

[Laramie]

You would have to pass a $2 billion dollar plus MAPS project to remotely address all the needs that would make an impact. Let the neighborhoods or Wards decide. This city was neglected for 3 decades (1960-90) before we passed the first MAPS I in 1993.

What we do know is this:

You're not going to rectify 3 decades of of neglect in one MAPS initiative; to continue the MAPS momentum, you going to have to have more projects included (bundled).

MAPS Timeline:

MAPS I Five year $350 million penny sales tax collection. The MAPS sales tax passed with 54 percent of the vote. December 1998 MAPS tax extension 67 percent approving a six-month extension.

MAPS II (2001 - Seven year, MAPS for Kids) $700 million. The Maps for Kids sales tax and bond issue were approved with 60 percent of the vote.

MAPS for HOOPS - 2008 (6 month extension), Oklahoma City voters in 2008 approved another extension of the penny sales tax to pay for $121 million in Ford Center improvements needed to please the NBA. Improvements are under way. The city’s first big league team, the NBA’s Oklahoma City Thunder, now calls Ford Center home--67 percent approving a six-month extension of the MAPS tax.

MAPS III (2009) Seven year, $777 million. 54 percent supporting MAPS 3

History of the MAPS projects TIMELINE timeline | News OK