Sheridan and Oklahoma Garage

[Just the facts]

That's ridiculous.

The huge percentage that will ride the streetcar will be people with cars who either live or work in the area.

They might own a car, but it won't be used in conjunction with a mass transit trip. The vast majority of all mass transit users start out and end as pedistrians - but I have no doubt OKC will try the Park and Ride model anyhow. I forget the term for it but the propensity for a person to stick to one type of transit for a single trip is very high. It is almost unreasonable to expect someone to drive downtown, pay to park in this garage, and then take the streetcar to midtown that A) Already has their own parking garages and B) has ample free parking. The more likely scenario would have been the other way around - parking in a less congested midtown and taking the streetcar into Bricktown, but even that was unlikly because Bricktown alread has ample parking.

[Bellaboo]

Trurh be told, car parking next to the streetcar won't impact it either way - because mass transit isn't for people who drive. It is for people who don't drive.

Go check out the line south out of downtown Denver along I-25. For 15 or 20 miles ever so often there are large parking garages where people park to jump on the rail line.

[Patrick]

I know that I will drive to downtown, pay to park in the garage, and then use the street car to get around downtown and to Midtown. When I move from place to place downtown why would I want to use my car when each time I move it I'd have to pay again for parking?

[catch22]

JTF lives in a fantasy binary world of 1's and 0's. It's either of or on, it's either great or crappy.

I park and ride frequently in Portland. It's many times easier to drive and skip 10 stops (which takes FOREVER) on the light rail, and ride the rail in the last mile.

Mass transit is for everybody, not just people without cars. Many people combine cars with transit.

[Dustin]

Go check out the line south out of downtown Denver along I-25. For 15 or 20 miles ever so often there are large parking garages where people park to jump on the rail line.

Same thing in Virginia/Maryland. People park and ride into DC on the metro.

[Just the facts]

Do you all really think this parking garage is going to increase streetcar ridership? If so, is the Streetcar committee going to increase their ridership expectations accordingly? Is this now a TOD?

[catch22]

Do you all really think this parking garage is going to increase streetcar ridership? If so, is the Streetcar committee going to increase their ridership expectations accordingly? Is this now a TOD?

This is out of hand. This whole conversation.

This garage will not be a transformative piece of the streetcar. As any parking garage along a transit rail line, there will be people who use it to park, to ride to a different area of town. It's sole purpose is to serve the businesses around the garage, but it's no stretch of the imagination to say people who park there may grab a ride on the streetcar if they need to also visit a different part of downtown during the same visit.

Jeez.

[Urban Pioneer]

So strange. You will find no bigger transit advocate than me. I have travelled all over the US studying transit systems. This community is in transition but it will be a good decade before a commuter rail system exists or enhanced bus service. Therefore, the car will rarely leave the transportation equation for many people.

My reference to a "Park N' Ride" is simply based on my own personal behavior... which I assume is shared by many. I have lived and/or worked downtown since 2001. Regular short trips downtown involve trips to the bank, lunch, office buildings, and city meetings. On a good day, I will ride my bicycle if I am not in a suit. But the reality is that I am often carrying stuff or in the suit making bicycling challenging. Plus there is the time element that often forces me to drive instead of walking across downtown. The other element is the cost. Parking can be expensive and metered parking brings the threat of a ticket should a meeting run over.

The streetcar is a pedestrian enabler. Karchmer's parking garage will serve those wanting to reach those businesses in that area of Bricktown. It is totally conceivable that once people park there, some will use the streetcar to access other parts of downtown without repeatedly using the car, looking for parking, and paying at multiple locations to temporarily store the car. At least that in my mind is a more efficient way to take advantage of the initial parking.

It doesn't mean that there probably isn't a higher and better use for the property. However, having the garage there probably won't affect streetcar ridership. The garage will probably be absorbing cars used for commuting.

I have also become accustomed to the fact that the dramatic potential impact of the streetcar is broadly misunderstood and rarely factored into current developmental planning. Hopefully that will change as the system comes online and its positive attributes enabling broader access to most of downtown result in more density and diversity.

Ignoring dogmatic thinking makes me no more less a transit and streetcar advocate and instead simply acknowledges reality. A bunch of us fought Karchmer tooth and nail behind closed doors to try to preserve the right-of-way for future commuter rail. That is where urbanist dogma fully kicked in, was appropriate, and we ended up saving the right-of-way. He is a nice guy and I am happy to see him develop somewhere else in a way that he can have financial success. If acknowledging that there are possibly beneficial elements to the streetcar system because some​ people might use it as a Park N' Ride makes me a sell out, so be it.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
He has not abandoned plans to develop the other property. That's great that the ROW was preserved, but the two developments were never an either/or.

Regarding this garage, people forget that there are thousands of employees and students in Bricktown; and not only service industry employees. Office workers, higher ed and others drive to the district every day to work and to study. This facility will have many daily and monthly parkers. As many of those people choose to move to the garage it frees up metered and surface spots for customers, and also makes it possible to develop surface lots elsewhere in the district (for instance the surface lot across the street). By the way, those office workers and students (and hotel guests) will without question use the streetcar to expand their dining and entertainment choices while parked in this garage.

Besides, structured parking isn't the enemy of the urban environment; surface parking is. This idea that we will one day be a city without cars is pure fantasy.

[Mr. Cotter]

I will use the streetcar. I will also need to drive downtown to use it. I will park in a lot, on street, or garage when I get downtown, and then use the streetcar to visit multiple destinations without re parking.

[Urbanized]

One more thing: the people who are acting like this is a less-than-desirable outcome for this property are ignoring the fact that it makes the hotel across the street possible AND supports the redevelopment of upper-floors above Melting Pot. The garage is intrinsic to these projects.

It could also support upper-story redevelopment above Spaghetti Warehouse - either office or residential - should a developer be able to get a deal there (they are trying).

If you (choose to) look at this in a vacuum, it's just a (very nice) parking garage. But if you view it from the standpoint of how it directly and indirectly supports redevelopment of other properties, it's one of the most important projects in the history of the district.

[Just the facts]

One of the most important projects in the history of the district because it makes Bricktown's 9th hotel possible?

It is a parking garage, and a pretty nice one - but let's not over-hype it.

[Urbanized]

Sure, if that's how you choose to see it. I mean, that's pretty much exactly what I said, right? Or perhaps you're just deliberately mischaracterizing my post for effect..? Nah, you'd never do that...

[Just the facts]

Okay - I'll agree it is in the Top 30 most important developments in the history of Bricktown.

[Chadanth]

It's a parking garage, and a nice one. It adds more parking, which gives additional convenience for suburbanites to come downtown and spend money. There will be street level retail or restaurant space. It's useful. It supports the fabric of bricktown. If you fill in all the surface parking but don't replace the spaces, it becomes burdensome for people to visit the district. There's a balance. I think this is a clear net positive.

[Urbanized]

Okay - I'll agree it is in the Top 30 most important developments in the history of Bricktown.

You are so ridiculous at times.

[Plutonic Panda]

The fact that a parking garage is receiving so much praise here, shows how far this city has to go. Funny thing is, this board gets pretty hostile towards cars at times, yet somehow approves of increased parking capacity downtown.

BTW, I have never had one parking issue anywhere in OKC. I have driven around for almost an hour at my apartment off Fountain in Los Angeles looking for parking. That is a parking problem. A garage was proposed back in 2013 or so and failed right close to where I live and now they are building a 200 something unit residential with a Sprouts underneath.

But in my opinion, if this is one of the most important projects in Bricktown's history, that is sad. Even more sad that developers don't have enough confidence in district to build a hotel without a parking garage right across the street.

Let's also look at how many parking garages there are or proposed.

Recently completed

*Aloft Garage(100 spaces?? and I never see more than 20 cars or so in it)
*Main Street Garage(800 spaces)
*123 Garage
*Devon Parking expansion

Almost never see those full and the 3 employees I know who work at Devon say there is garage is almost never full.

Under-construction

*I'll just add this garage since it'll probably pass
*BOK Plaza center garage(500-800 spaces or possibly even more??)

Proposed

*Karchmer Garage (Bricktown over 1000 spaces)
*OGE Garage
*Journal Record Building Garage

That's not even including the new garages being built in the Steelyard, Convention Center, Bodyworks Site, Maywood Phase 2, Metropolitan, etc. I mean there a sh!tload of parking garages being built. Then people want to complain about walkability issues or new tollways and highways being built. It makes no sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, there has to be some sort of parking structures in downtown, but it seems what we have is enough or very close to it.

[Urbanized]

Personally I'm not praising increased capacity; I'm excited that it will unlock quality development in other properties - including a surface lot. In fact, this development eliminates TWO surface lots, and may even cause a rethink of the lot between Chelino's and Mojo's/Biting Sow. Oh, and BTW creates 16,000 sq ft of new street front retail/commercial along Sheridan. Poor-mouthing this building is comical.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not trying to poor mouth this building. It's beautiful and will add a great streetwall presence while hopefully adding to the street life which I think it will. I just also believe it is hiding something that is a root of a bigger issue in OKC. I would be much more excited if it went 1st level retail, 2-5 parking, 6-9 housing.

[Urbanized]

I don't think you're poor-mouthing it PluPan. Sorry if the timing of that comment made it seem that way.

[Plutonic Panda]

No worries. I completely agree that this will open up new development opportunities for other lots and that is exciting. So I'm ready to see that.

[bchris02]

Don't get me wrong, there has to be some sort of parking structures in downtown, but it seems what we have is enough or very close to it.

Agreed. People also need to learn that they don't always have to park right in front of their destination. They can park at this garage and walk anywhere in Bricktown, Deep Deuce, or Myriad Gardens from there. Part of the problem in OKC is people can't accept walking more than a block or two. It's that mindset that needs to change.

[Urban Pioneer]

^^^^^^
He has not abandoned plans to develop the other property. That's great that the ROW was preserved, but the two developments were never an either/or.

I did not mean to suggest that it is an either/or. My guess though is that he will probably be busy with this project for the moment instead of trying to gain permission to bifurcate a significant public Right of Way.

Unless there is a complete sell out of our City Council, one would think that any future plans for the East Bricktown site will take the rail requirements into the equation instead of trying to force ridiculous engineering modifications to how an efficient rail system would operate so that a parking garage can be built.

I am just glad he is working on something that benefits both him and the public without the overtly negative impacts from the other initial proposal.

[TU 'cane]

Personally I'm not praising increased capacity; I'm excited that it will unlock quality development in other properties - including a surface lot. In fact, this development eliminates TWO surface lots, and may even cause a rethink of the lot between Chelino's and Mojo's/Biting Sow. Oh, and BTW creates 16,000 sq ft of new street front retail/commercial along Sheridan. Poor-mouthing this building is comical.

This is the way I look at it.
As I stated previously here, this will actually open up the other surface lots within it's block and the one to the East for possible development because there will be parking made available with this garage, and it's all within a very simple walking distance.

Plus, I don't think this is the most exciting project in BT, that probably goes to the Cummins Building, which deserves the praise it's receiving. I think most of us are simply seeing this project as a necessary complement to the existing "fabric" that will open up more potential.

[OkiePoke]

This is the way I look at it.
As I stated previously here, this will actually open up the other surface lots within it's block and the one to the East for possible development because there will be parking made available with this garage, and it's all within a very simple walking distance.

Plus, I don't think this is the most exciting project in BT, that probably goes to the Cummins Building, which deserves the praise it's receiving. I think most of us are simply seeing this project as a necessary complement to the existing "fabric" that will open up more potential.

I believe the lot to the east has a planned hotel, approximately 10-13 stories.