Bury the power lines

[Pete]

And BTW, things aren't changing anytime soon.

The governor just last year signed a new law that works as a strong disincentive for homeowners to generate their own electricity.

[gopokes88]

It's not just the taxation and charges, it's the lack of tax incentives, low-interest loans, etc.

There are reasons you see so little solar in Oklahoma. Absolutely tons of it in California, which offers all types of incentives.

Just read that of 800,000 OG&E customers, only 200 to 400 use any solar or wind power.

Also, OG&E will only reimburse you for the amount of energy you actually use; they will not pay you for any extra that is fed back into the grid.

And I'm saying because other states are offering tax incentives the technology will improve enough they become no longer necessary. That's the entire point of a tax incentive.

Oklahoma won't be on the forefront of solar, but as solar gets cheaper and cheaper eventually we won't need them, and then it'll be economical all on its own to put solar and a battery pack in your home.

It's ok we aren't on the leading edge, let other states spend tons on subsidies, we'll still reap the benefits.

Oklahoma was the leading edge on wind generation. which is better here then solar.

[Martin]

i'm not sure how common this is but the covenants in my neighborhood actually forbid me to install solar panels on my roof. -M

[gopokes88]

And BTW, things aren't change anytime soon.

The governor just last year signed a new law that works as a strong disincentive for homeowners to generate their own electricity.

I don't care if she outright banned them. Eventually bad policy always loses out.
Think of a cell phone in 1990, and think of one today. The same thing will happen with solar, particularity the home use application, it's an enormous potential market with very large upside. (Installation, upgrade cycles every 5 years, and maintenance)
We'll hit a point where the solar panel system pays for itself in 4 months, and if there's laws blocking that you can bet you butt people will get the laws changed or just break them.

[Pete]

^

The policy will change only when Oklahoma stops being pro energy, which is going to happen never.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's ok we aren't on the leading edge, let other states spend tons on subsidies, we'll still reap the benefits.
.

That's the mentality!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jerrywall]

And BTW, things aren't changing anytime soon.

The governor just last year signed a new law that works as a strong disincentive for homeowners to generate their own electricity.

I believe that's the law that just taxes proceeds on selling energy, unless there is another one. I support it. I'd hate to see google or another major company setup fully solar, pump energy into the grid (for a profit), and make homeowners in OKC support the infrastructure costs...

edited: not profits, but credit. If a large company is able to setup enough wind and solar power, they could pay zero money to OG&E yet there are still infrastructure costs related to them pumping the power in. If they chose, they could be completely off the grid, and have no connection, and power themselves, with no tax. But if they are going to have a line run to their house or business, they should pay something. There is maintenance and upkeep related to the lines.

[jerrywall]

i'm not sure how common this is but the covenants in my neighborhood actually forbid me to install solar panels on my roof. -M

That may be rare. I have a pretty strict homeowners group and they don't ban solar panels. At least I hope it's rare.

[Pete]

Keep in mind the charges that went into effect last year in Oklahoma are not commonly seen in other states and are certainly regarded as a deterrent, which is exactly what it was meant to be.

[gopokes88]

Pete the free market wins in the end. Always. When solar gets cheap, people will always act in their own self interest. If Oklahoma tries to block, people will throw them out or just break the law. (See: speed limits and marijuana) I'm talking 25 years down the road. Millienials will be in their 50s at that point. Life will be very different just as 1990 is very different then today.

Free market > any government policy.

My original point was don't worry about burying power lines we'll all be off the grip in a generation anyway.

[jerrywall]

Keep in mind the charges that went into effect last year in Oklahoma are not commonly seen in other states and are certainly regarded as a deterrent, which is exactly what it was meant to be.

Do we know what the surcharge is yet? Is anything in place? Arizona has what amounts to basically $5 surcharge per month for solar customers. I believe this will be controlled by the CC and not the energy companies.

[Plutonic Panda]

Pete the free market wins in the end. Always. When solar gets cheap, people will always act in their own self interest. If Oklahoma tries to block, people will throw them out or just break the law. (See: speed limits and marijuana) I'm talking 25 years down the road. Millienials will be in their 50s at that point. Life will be very different just as 1990 is very different then today.

Free market > any government policy.

My original point was don't worry about burying power lines we'll all be off the grip in a generation anyway.

So you don't think we're going to have power lines in 25 years? Even if that is true, that's awhile away.

[gopokes88]

So you don't think we're going to have power lines in 25 years? Even if that is true, that's awhile away.

No, don't waste a ton of money burying them. In 25 years most homes will have panels and batteries. They'll power themselves independently except maybe when it's 110 degrees out and they'll need to pull from the line. So an ice storm comes and knocks your pole over you aren't going to worry to much because your home runs independently.

Basically these storms won't be as big of a deal in the future because a downed line doesn't automatically equal power loss.

[Pete]

The idea that all power lines can be eliminated and thus not needed any more is completely unrealistic.

You would need *all* homes on alternative power for this to happen and even then, the wires are important in terms of balancing supply and demand across the grid.

Absolutely no reason to think power lines won't be with us for a very, very long time.

[shawnw]

As a perhaps weak analogy, 25 years ago one might have said we won't need telephone poles/lines in 25 years thanks to cellular phones. I'm sure there are plenty of new homes not having telephone line run to them, but those poles aren't going anywhere because of that...

[gopokes88]

I never said we don't need power lines. We'll probably always have power lines.

I said in 25 years a huge ice storm isn't going to paralyze everything because most homes will be self sustaining. So the benefit of burying power lines, like avoiding huge power losses due to downed poles will be vastly diminished.

So yes burying the power lines is a huge waste of money and problem that is likely fixed by technology in 25 years.

[mkjeeves]

There was a hearing today at the CC on OGE distributed energy tarriffs.

Groups plan protest of OG&E's solar rate proposal - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[mkjeeves]

REC filed at some point. I don't know if theirs has gone into effect. I seem to remember something recently that OGE has not been able to put figures out to back up an amount they need to offset costs yet.

Here's some of the backstory on that issue.

A report last year by the industry’s research group, the Edison Electric Institute, warns of the risks posed by rooftop solar. It compared the development to the rapid technological changes from wireless communications that upended the traditional “Baby Bell” telephone companies.

“When customers have the opportunity to reduce their use of a product or find another provider of such service, utility earnings growth is threatened,” the report said. “As this threat to growth becomes more evident, investors will become less attracted to investments in the utility sector.”

The report urged regulated utilities to move quickly to change their rate tariffs to recover fixed costs from distributed generation. In Oklahoma, that happened this year with Senate Bill 1456. It drew some opposition from environmental groups, solar advocates and others, but passed the Legislature and is on Gov. Mary Fallin’s desk.

SB 1456 reversed a 1977 law that forbade utilities to charge extra to solar users. The new bill allows regulated utilities to apply to the Oklahoma Corporation Commission for a new class of customers who use distributed generation. The customers would be charged a higher base rate to make up for the infrastructure costs for sending excess electricity back to the grid.

The state’s major electric utilities backed the bill but couldn’t provide figures on how much customers already using distributed generation are getting subsidized by other customers. Oklahoma Gas and Electric Co. and Public Service Co. of Oklahoma have about 1.3 million electric customers in the state. They have about 500 customers using distributed generation.

Oklahoma electric utilities want higher rate for solar, wind energy producers | News OK

[Plutonic Panda]

I never said we don't need power lines. We'll probably always have power lines.

I said in 25 years a huge ice storm isn't going to paralyze everything because most homes will be self sustaining. So the benefit of burying power lines, like avoiding huge power losses due to downed poles will be vastly diminished.

So yes burying the power lines is a huge waste of money and problem that is likely fixed by technology in 25 years.

It also has to do with looks as well.

[Pete]

^

Yes, appearance which is why they bury them in new developments.

[AP]

The idea that all power lines can be eliminated and thus not needed any more is completely unrealistic.

But so is the idea that we should bury all of our power lines.

[Pete]

We don't need to bury all of them... Just prioritize areas and start the process.

This is how other cities do it, including the one I just moved from.

[Teo9969]

The goal should be to have everything buried in the Grand Loop by 2040 and require new developments to bury. That would likely lead to having only the middle ring of 1950s - 2000s era development that will need to be addressed for the following 25-35 years.

[Plutonic Panda]

But so is the idea that we should bury all of our power lines.

Correct. I don't think anyone is advocating for that to happen either. That is why I suggested doing it in phases and that doesn't mean that 100% of all power lines will be buried in the state of Oklahoma ever.

[mkjeeves]

I know someone who lived in the Crown Heights area (IIRC) who had their existing overhead lines from the pole to their house placed underground at their own expense. OG and E required them to replace the meter base with one designed for underground service, to trench and install a 3" PVC conduit from there to the pole at the back of the property. OG and E cut it over from there at no expense. I'm not sure if they would still do that.