Historical Neighborhoods Discussion

[Teo9969]

I certainly won't argue that it's nice to have diversity within neighborhoods. But you can construct a quality 900 sf home and a trash 2100 sf home. Nevertheless, the spectrum of "should absolutely be razed" to "should absolutely be preserved" correlates strongly with the spectrum of small to large.

Of course, I'm not saying that I want people to come in and raze houses indiscriminately, and I would certainly hope that there are many safe-guards in place to keep owners from damaging the character of our urban core neighborhoods whether through gentrification or through new development, but it's also important to remember that the present is history as well, and it is okay for old neighborhoods to gain new faces.

If OKC were to figure out the perfect solution, they'd beat every city in the history of the world to the punch. It's an impossibly complex issue. So I'm not by any means saying that my proposition is fool-proof. It's a genuine effort to find out where boundaries are to determine best practices for our city.

[Uptowner]

Sounds like that 600ft charmer is just the kind of place you're talking about for low income. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention this utopian OKC where the rich live among the poor. Neighborhoods rise, and neighborhoods fall. Paseo fell for about 35 years. The arts district combined with fact that there are big plush homes kept high income families in the area while the multi-plexs and small homes deteriorated into flop houses and in the worst cases, squats, and drug/trap houses. Paseo is now on a big rise, in many cases the dirt far exceeds the value of the house, and the question being raised here is what houses can be razed, and what houses benefit more from inexpensive improvements that DO open a gap for modest incomes, and would we rather just let them rot waiting for rare opportunities for people to make less than stellar investments by fixing them out of love, nostalgia, or long term fixer-uppers. These are the same kind of people who dump money into the wrong kinds of classic cars...like a tricked out '78 4 door grand am.

Like I mentioned before there are TONS of multi family in the HP between 36th and 23rd. So many quality duplexes also. And tons of young singles occupy them and add a lot of youth and energy to the hood.

Bad duplexes: like teo's top link to the assessors site- many of the homes on my street, including mine. Were built as microscopic duplexes then converted to singles in the 60s and 70s. The bicycle tree house was actually built as 5 or 6 units. Some consisting of a single bedroom and a shared common area with bathroom for the entire floor. My house was built as mother-in-law with shared bathroom and kitchen. My neighbor's has a converted carriage house that the tennent had to shower in the big(1000ft) house, and sh** in the garage next to the washer/dryer hookups.

Despite the junky houses, the development in the core is causing the paseo properties rise. At the behest of my agent I made an offer on mine sight unseen, for $120 a foot, agent said she could have gotten $150 since it's such a big lot. It was on the market for 2 hours and had 18 showings scheduled for the next day. Not cheap, but compare it to the average price of $500 in MP, but there's an example of a neighborhood that needs the stringent HP code.

Now on to the subject of letting properties rot: the news on the block between 25-24th Dewey-Walker has gone dark for about 2 years now. Does anyone know anything? I'm so tired of looking at them like that. There's actually a gem Of a duplex on Dewey. Which after looking it up, to my surprise it's not owned by the sieber people. http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R047242975

[Teo9969]

Sounds like that 600ft charmer is just the kind of place you're talking about for low income. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention this utopian OKC where the rich live among the poor. Neighborhoods rise, and neighborhoods fall. Paseo fell for about 35 years. The arts district combined with fact that there are big plush homes kept high income families in the area while the multi-plexs and small homes deteriorated into flop houses and in the worst cases, squats, and drug/trap houses. Paseo is now on a big rise, in many cases the dirt far exceeds the value of the house, and the question being raised here is what houses can be razed, and what houses benefit more from inexpensive improvements that DO open a gap for modest incomes, and would we rather just let them rot waiting for rare opportunities for people to make less than stellar investments by fixing them out of love, nostalgia, or long term fixer-uppers. These are the same kind of people who dump money into the wrong kinds of classic cars...like a tricked out '78 4 door grand am.

Like I mentioned before there are TONS of multi family in the HP between 36th and 23rd. So many quality duplexes also. And tons of young singles occupy them and add a lot of youth and energy to the hood.

Bad duplexes: like teo's top link to the assessors site- many of the homes on my street, including mine. Were built as microscopic duplexes then converted to singles in the 60s and 70s. The bicycle tree house was actually built as 5 or 6 units. Some consisting of a single bedroom and a shared common area with bathroom for the entire floor. My house was built as mother-in-law with shared bathroom and kitchen. My neighbor's has a converted carriage house that the tennent had to shower in the big(1000ft) house, and sh** in the garage next to the washer/dryer hookups.

Despite the junky houses, the development in the core is causing the paseo properties rise. At the behest of my agent I made an offer on mine sight unseen, for $120 a foot, agent said she could have gotten $150 since it's such a big lot. It was on the market for 2 hours and had 18 showings scheduled for the next day. Not cheap, but compare it to the average price of $500 in MP, but there's an example of a neighborhood that needs the stringent HP code.

Now on to the subject of letting properties rot: the news on the block between 25-24th Dewey-Walker has gone dark for about 2 years now. Does anyone know anything? I'm so tired of looking at them like that. There's actually a gem Of a duplex on Dewey. Which after looking it up, to my surprise it's not owned by the sieber people. http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R047242975

Those are all Landrun properties aren't they? IIRC they are trying to figure out plans for that whole block, including the empty land fronting Walker and 25th. I think the delay on the Rise probably set them back financially coupled with the fact that they are getting involved with several areas downtown.

[Uptowner]

Sold to Floyd Simon in 2013. Landrun used to own them, I've also heard rumor they hold the note on them still. Most all of the block has been zones commercial. Which opens up all kinds of options. IF the owner was able to raze the homes. But at current rate, they'll fall down soon enough.

[OKC62]

I would like to defend my HP neighborhood Putnam Heights against homes being worthy of tearing down. I am new to Putnam Heights. We are empty nester who have been waiting to finish paying for college and move back to OKC from Edmond. When we left OKC in 1992 we lived in Crown Heights. We did look in Crown Heights, but ultimately ended up in Putnam. The lots here are much larger than Crown Heights and we found a house we fell in love with a large beautiful yard. I thought maybe the comments about tears downs was due to the fact that perhaps the boundaries of Putnam HP are unknown. It is 38th, 37th, 36th, 35th and McKinley encased by Georgia, Blackwelder and Classen Blvd. If the home has a Classen, Georgia or Blackwelder address it is not in Historical Putnam Heights.

There is so much history here. When we first moved in we were found a wonderful treasure trove of papers left behind for us. They belonged to Judge Vaught. We have telegrams written to Chief Justice William Howard Taft Concerning Judge Vaught's nomination to the Federal Court. Judge Vaught lived in Putnam.

3825 McKinley was used as the Governor's Mansion for Governor J.B.A. Robertson.

Although some of these homes are not as stunning, the neighborhood has several architectural styles including English Colonial, Spanish Colonial, Tudor, Mission, Classical Revival, Prairie and Craftsman. We do have a few homes that could use some repair, but none that you would consider tear downs.

Everything west of Georgia and Blackwelder is not Putnam Heights Historical and it is full of rentals and landlords who do not care about the state of their properties. There are several homeowners west of Georgia and Blackwelder trying to take that area back. Please buy all these rental house and put in Mid-Century homes. I love them, but leave this little historical gem I live in as it is.

[ljbab728]

An interesting article by William Crum.

Does Oklahoma City's appeal target historic homes? | Oklahoman.com

Every month, the Oklahoma City Council votes to tear down decrepit houses.

Owners seldom show up.

When they do, most likely it's to plead for time to make repairs.

That changed this fall when James Matherly's house at 2900 N Harvey Parkway made the list.

Matherly came to the council and all but said, “Tear down my house — please.”

Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer said in an interview she was concerned houses "can be picked off and allowed to deteriorate until they have to come down."

The city helped historic district property owners to act years ago to protect property values and the council has to respect that, she said.

[LakeEffect]

An interesting article by William Crum.

Does Oklahoma City's appeal target historic homes? | Oklahoman.com

Really good reporting here. Demolition by neglect is a big problem.

Also, the City worked to stem this tide w/ their vacant and abandoned building ordinance, but they were overridden by the State Legislature...

[Plutonic Panda]

This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow

[Teo9969]

This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow

Perhaps one of the best arguments to save historical homes is that the living rooms were built without the TV in mind. There's always this cognitive dissonance I experience walking through pre-WWII homes because more often than not, I intrinsically realize the TV doesn't quite fit.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
If you really want to be authentic about it, you'd place an upright piano underneath the piano window that almost every pre-war house possesses, but which most homeowners today cannot identify as such. Screw mustaches and vinyl and fixed-gear bicycles; true hipsters should be gathering friends around the piano and singing Scott Joplin and Fats Waller tunes.

[OSUFan]

This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow

They would have good neighbors (my in-laws).

[adaniel]

Ugh I am so jealous of that house, and only for 200K. A similar home that style in Dallas would probably be in M Streets or Lakewood and be well over 500K.

[Canoe]

Really good reporting here. Demolition by neglect is a big problem.

Also, the City worked to stem this tide w/ their vacant and abandoned building ordinance, but they were overridden by the State Legislature...

I am familiar with this property and owners. It will be interesting to see what she builds on that lot. She works for a respectable firm.

[Spartan]

Very good reporting by Steve.

The problem with demo by neglect is that it's difficult to pin down and do something about it. I am not surprised that it looks like the HP Commission finally pinned somebody down who is obviously demo'ing by neglect, after they knew what they were buying into with a historic district, and the non-accountable city councilors (those who owe nothing to voters inside historic districts) let them off the hook, while those councilors who are accountable to historic neighborhoods made an unsuccessful stand.

Now we can all turn the page on yet another chapter in the demise of historic OKC... a few more decades and we get to our goal where more of OKC will look like James Greiner's ward, less like the wards of Meg and Ed.

The argument that should be making a difference (but isn't) is the dollars and cents/sense. These historic homes in OKC are selling for $200-300 per SF due to market differentiation. You will never recreate a cute old bungalow no matter how hard you try and how much you spend. Homes in the OKC metro typically sell for... as sad as it is to say, probably not even $100 per SF. The reality is that there is just no value in most of our real estate.

Back when my parentals were home shopping while I was in high school it seemed like $130,000 was going rate for 2,000 SF. In order for these homes to be at all helpful in allowing middle class families to build equity, they need to be worth at least $100 per SF. We need to stop pretending that the low cost of housing is a perk. It's a huge liability and a major economic detriment that is holding OKC back. The only systematic way I can think of to combat that and build equity within our communities is to embrace market differentiation and really protect these historic neighborhoods. They are all worth so much more as an in-tact whole than as a disparate collection of some houses here and there. If we allow that asset to whither, just think of all of the dollars we are flushing down the drain in Central Oklahoma. For a low-income region, we can't afford our mistakes to be that expensive and irreversible.

[Buffalo Bill]

I am familiar with this property and owners. It will be interesting to see what she builds on that lot. She works for a respectable firm.

More than that, it will be interesting to see what she is allowed to build on that lot.

[turnpup]

This home is for sale, in Linwood Place:

Tudor on the Boulevard - 3139 NW 19th, Oklahoma City, OK 73107 (1458083)

[Uptowner]

Anyone else seeing a lot of "for sale by owner" signs popping up in mesta? I called on one out of curiosity and after 10 minutes of being told about how they made two bedrooms into a master suite and added a bathroom downstairs, took out a wall here and made the kitchen bigger, etc. They were firm on half a million for 2,000 ft. Kinda felt like they were just fishing.

It brought up the thought though that improvements like that, like dumping cash into a classic car, will never realize their investment. Any thoughts? For instance, you bought a mesta home in need of mucho resto, so you do the floors the way you want, the kitchen redo, the bathroom remodel, you paid 200 put in 200. Is it now worth $400? In flipping the answer is yes plus hopefully around 20-25% profit. But does that apply to a high end historic home? Let's stay in the context of the high end homes because I stand by my statement that half or more of the 20-30's houses are Junkers, or good flippers for starter homes/low income.

[Canoe]

There are alot of houses in Hertigage Hills and Mesta Park that sell without realtors. The buyers are either baby boomers downsizing from Edmond, family money, or people moving in from out of state.

These homes are not selling to the middle of the middle class. They are selling to dual income families and above.

They are still a deal compared to the houses in SOSA or deep duece. Really there is a shortage of houses/housing available near the core.

[turnpup]

Yeah, HHE, I'm thinking that right now it's better to get that non-fixer-upper that's already got everything done on it. It's amazing how fast improvements add up, at least those done to a person's personal satisfaction. If you were to really add up all the improvements made on one's house over a decade, you probably wouldn't recoup that, dollar for dollar, when you sell. I try not to think about it too much so my head won't explode.

[Canoe]

Honestly there are places in the market for fixer uppers and completed houses.

If you are young and without children then taking a second job fixing up an old house maybe profitable when you sell it in 8 years. For alot of young men fixing an old house is more rewarding than call of duty or halo.

If you are an established family with more wealth than free time then the best bet is probably to pay a premium for a fixed house.

[Uptowner]

It's amazing how fast improvements add up, at least those done to a person's personal satisfaction. If you were to really add up all the improvements made on one's house over a decade, you probably wouldn't recoup that, dollar for dollar, when you sell. I try not to think about it too much so my head won't explode.

More to my point. the market value might not reflect the Victorian wallpaper job and the gaudy plaster molding. I saw a $750,000 home in HH with a full on southwestern kitchen complete with chargrilled pine cabinets, wrought irons hardware, and roosters in the tile backsplash.

I just wonder if it's possible to ever see that returned in equity. I can see market value in a sprinkler system or a full pvc plumbing overhaul with a tankless water heater, central air, etc. But it an $80,000 nightmare of a kitchen? That bathroom you added to the basement to turn it into a man cave? Well that last one maybe, so I can play my call of duty and halo in peace

[Plutonic Panda]

Another cool home for sale. 350k

732 NE 20th St, Oklahoma City, OK 73105 | MLS #715297 | Zillow

[Plutonic Panda]

Bungalow for sale in Putnam Heights for 140k

https://www.facebook.com/okchistoric...29760677048612