Historical Neighborhoods Discussion

[BradF]

I'm a huge fan of the historical neighborhoods OKC has to offer. There's really a great architectural diversity in our city from bungalows, tudors (lots of these north and south of 23rd), all the way to the four square homes in Mesta and elsewhere. Here's an interesting Facebook page about our neighborhoods:

https://www.facebook.com/okchistorical

Having said that, my personal favorite is probably Lincoln Terrace because it's HIGHLY underrated and home to some rich history and prestigious homes.

We have many great historical neighborhoods: Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Lincoln Terrace, Putnam Heights, Gatewood, Las Vegas, Shepherd Historic, Jefferson Park, Paseo, Crestwood, Miller, Cleveland, Denniston Park, etc.

[Spartan]

I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

[Uptowner]

None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

[BradF]

I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

The prices have certainly gone up the past several years - and rightly so. But ask a commoner in the city about Lincoln Terrace. I'd be willing to bet most of them haven't even heard of it - at least not on the same scale as Mesta Park or Edgemere.

[OSUFan]

None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

Why did you buy it?

[PhiAlpha]

None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

Well in that case, I'm glad HP exists haha.

[LakeEffect]

I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

It is? What data are you using?

[sooner88]

I think HP is really valuable. Neighborhoods that don't have it, like Nichols Hills, are seeing a lot of the original houses torn down in favor of newer style houses that look like they're from an Edmond subdivision.

[Spartan]

It is? What data are you using?

No data, just anecdotal memory.

But here is some data:
Lincoln Terrace - Oklahoma City OK Real Estate - 7 Homes For Sale | Zillow

[Uptowner]

None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

[PhiAlpha]

HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

I agree that they go overboard at times, but you moved into a historic preservation district, just as I did and it goes with the territory. HP guidelines were put in place to protect the history of the urban housing districts...the same history that many posters on OKCtalk are upset about losing to urban renewal downtown. I haven't had near that negative of experience with HP and of everyone I know that owns rent houses in the paseo or Jefferson (or has flipped houses there), don't know of anyone that has had that big of problem with them. I know people that have made money flipping houses there and who live in houses that they renovated and are very happy with.

In your backyard example, it shouldn't be an issue if the Windows can't be seen from the street. As it was explained to me and from what I've read in the guidelines, they only have jurisdiction over what can be seen from the road or the primary facade of the house. If those cheap windows were in the front the house, then those sorry SOBs you mentioned got what they deserved. They should've read the regulations and followed them before tearing out the historic Windows that those guidelines are meant to protect. Replacing historic Windows in the front of the house, especially the decorative ones, with cheap vinyl Windows can quickly ruin the character and curb appeal of a historic home. Restoring wood windows is not that difficult and with the addition of a storm window and some weatherproofing, can be close in efficiency to newer double pane windows.

It's hard to feel too bad for you when you knowingly moved into a craftsmen bungalo style neighborhood (which by definition is made up of houses that are around 1000 sq ft) that is a historic preservation district and are upset that you can't tear down or drastically alter a historic house inside of it. Prior to purchasing my home, I read through the HP guidelines to make sure I could handle them. Did you not research them before you purchased your house?

[Canoe]

HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

Buy empty land or run down house (tear down) and build new. If you have the resources. If you don't then you have the option of buying a poorly flipped house. You can also buy a house properly fixed, but it will cost you more than building new.

[Uptowner]

Oh yes yes yes. I knew what I was getting into going HP. I've death with commercial projects inside the zones for years. I haven't had any issues with my house. I do however think the code goes too far in that it prevents practical upgrades(many contractors won't work in hp) and results in deterioration and in some cases, houses rotting into the ground. I will applaud Katie Friddle though as the director of the department she's doing a great job in a difficult position of staff recommendations around code that was piecemealed and written by laymen.

[okatty]

I have no experience with HP, but am curious about thoughts on these houses that you see which were taken "down to the studs" and re-done. I assume that lessens some of the problems you see in old houses but not all. I'd appreciate some perspective on this as we have looked at a few of them from time to time but don't feel i have the insight to evaluate them.

[Teo9969]

PhiAlpha,

I don't think comparing HP in downtown is the same as comparing HP to urban core neighborhoods. OKC does not have wide-spread dense and urban development history to draw from so every piece that is extant is incredibly valuable.

This is not true of single-family residences from before WWII. There are houses that simply aren't worth preserving, and there are houses that are absolutely worth keeping. Only in the best of OKC's historic neighborhoods (HH, MP, CH) can you say that a vast majority of the homes are of high enough quality that all should submit to HP guidelines.

In other nice neighborhoods like Putnam Heights, there are many houses that are unquestionably beautiful and worthy of preservation, but there are also many houses that just aren't quite there. It wouldn't be killer for some of those homes to be modernized or in the case of new build, to be built in a modern style in order to make the neighborhood more eclectic.

Certainly I think any neighborhood should strive for quality architectural aesthetics, but only certain areas, IMHO should be subjected to the super intense requirements of HP.

[Uptowner]

^^^^^ I gues that's what I was trying to say the whole time. Some, no plenty of houses in these overlays are pure crap. There were tons of cowboy home builders in un-incorporated neighborhoods just building to sell. I'm not sure where the word "craftsman" comes into play. There's 2x4" gables on 30' spans, 6" floor joists that bow into bowl shaped floors. My neighbor has a 1929 home that we just discovered has newspaper, NEWSPAPER for insulation.

[Urbanized]

Do you mean cellulose? Or actual wadded up newspapers? Blown-in cellulose was pretty common, and in fact is still widely used today. It's made of ground up recycled newsprint, treated with a flame retardant. If it's just wadded up newspapers that is something different, of course.

[Tundra]

Do you mean cellulose? Or actual wadded up newspapers? Blown-in cellulose was pretty common, and in fact is still widely used today. It's made of ground up recycled newsprint, treated with a flame retardant. If it's just wadded up newspapers that is something different, of course.

I have seen many projects that newspaper was used for insulation , and it was not blown in cellulose. Newspaper was a poor mans alternative to the real thing.

[Uptowner]

It looked a bit like cellulose, except minimal fiber, it went up like tinder, and 80% of it had print still on it. It looked like something a vendor made with a wood chipper. It wasn't blown in. Looked stuffed. Probably bought at the 1929 equivalent of harbor freight...

[PhiAlpha]

PhiAlpha,

I don't think comparing HP in downtown is the same as comparing HP to urban core neighborhoods. OKC does not have wide-spread dense and urban development history to draw from so every piece that is extant is incredibly valuable.

This is not true of single-family residences from before WWII. There are houses that simply aren't worth preserving, and there are houses that are absolutely worth keeping. Only in the best of OKC's historic neighborhoods (HH, MP, CH) can you say that a vast majority of the homes are of high enough quality that all should submit to HP guidelines.

In other nice neighborhoods like Putnam Heights, there are many houses that are unquestionably beautiful and worthy of preservation, but there are also many houses that just aren't quite there. It wouldn't be killer for some of those homes to be modernized or in the case of new build, to be built in a modern style in order to make the neighborhood more eclectic.

Certainly I think any neighborhood should strive for quality architectural aesthetics, but only certain areas, IMHO should be subjected to the super intense requirements of HP.

I agree to a point, but if you become more lenient with it, where do you draw the line between what is demolishable and what isn't? Sure some houses probably aren't worth restoring, but I would argue that most in the historic preservation districts are:

[Teo9969]

I don't know how you draw those lines. I also like to think that people know when something is worth saving and when something isn't.

I own two homes on the same street. One I will make a genuine effort to keep standing for decades to come. The other I wouldn't think twice about razing if the right opportunity presents itself even though it's a nice enough looking house. On my street there are 17 houses. I would say that 6 or 7 are definitely worth keeping, 6 or 7 that are good enough to keep, but if the right thing were to come around they're disposable, and 3 or 4 that need to be razed yesterday.

I would say if 38th street between Shartel and Walker is in the 98th percentile of Urban Core homes (With the 99th-100th being the nicest streets in Heritage Hills), then my street is probably between the 55th and 60th percentile. I'd say that my street could easily fit in with Jefferson Park, Paseo, Gatewood, or Putnam Heights even if it's on the slightly crappy end for some of those neighborhoods.

But that's the point, there are lots of areas within a lot of these neighborhoods that just don't have it.

At the least, one should be able to apply for an inspection approved variance if a home just doesn't have the craftsmanship involved in the original build to justify its preservation.

And who knows…maybe with some of these homes we could eventually even get Braniff quality improvements if we relax the standards a bit.

[Canoe]

What would keep a clever man from buying a property, gutting the interior, neglecting the exterior (like main street) then letting nature demolish the property? I fear if you relax the standards or open a loophole then that is exactly what would happen to Uptowners crack jack bungalows.

If this was an acceptable method it would drag down the neighborhood as much as the current California landlords that rent neglected houses in the core. Externalities by outside enties is a real threat.

[Teo9969]

What would keep a clever man from buying a property, gutting the interior, neglecting the exterior (like main street) then letting nature demolish the property? I fear if you relax the standards or open a loophole then that is exactly what would happen to Uptowners crack jack bungalows.

If this was an acceptable method it would drag down the neighborhood as much as the current California landlords that rent neglected houses in the core. Externalities by outside enties is a real threat.

If it's in a prime area like HH/MP/CH, the fact that they will have to build something that matches the guidelines anyway is a pretty good reason not to, especially given that the majority of those homes are of a high quality and are big enough anyway.

In other neighborhoods, if the home is already of a quality enough mold, then why wait for mother nature to ravish a home over 2 to 4 years, risk penalties, etc. when you could easily buy and flip or buy and use. If it already possesses quality features, highlight those features and get on with your day. You're not going to make oh so much more money by demolishing something you will have had to pay a higher price for anyway, and then build something marginally bigger from scratch and come out much ahead. That's just the nature of the beast these days.

If you applied for a variance, these are the types of properties that would certainly have a chance at being granted a variance:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R046602720
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R046606520

These are the type that likely wouldn't:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R046601940
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assess...TNO=R046606000

The first 2 are made with cheap exterior materials, there is little distinctive about them, they don't represent even the good of the era from which they come. Both are under 1,500 sq.ft. (not saying that should be a cut-off point…but they are at least *more* obsolete than a home that is over 1,500 sq.ft.) Major architectural changes would have to be made to bring them up a category or two in terms of quality.

The second 2 are made with more expensive exterior materials, they have distinctive features that establish them as representative of quality architecture of the era from which they come. Neither of those are high-quality homes, but they are large enough to be plenty marketable in today's real estate environment, and they can easily be made to look fantastic, just by investing in what is already there.

[Canoe]

I thought it was a good idea to have 1000 sq. ft. Houses so the neighborhood could have a mixed income. Isn't that a strength of OKC that we have rich people living close to poor people? I believe there is a place for marble countertops and vinyl countertops in the same neighborhood.

You are right no one is going to tear down the Hefner Mansion in Hertigage Hills to build a modern equivalent. All they would do is tear down 1000 ft^2 houses and build new 2600 ft^2 houses for the upper income professionals. By losing the smaller houses we lose a piece of what the neighborhood was historically.

If you want to tear down and build new there is a 600 ft^2 charmer for 30k on NW 15th just south of the plaza. Classen Ten Penn is not HP.

[Spartan]

HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

You need some education on how to competently care for historic windows:

Windows - Preservation Leadership Forum

This isn't hard, and I hope the above link helps.