Christopher Columbus Day in okc may be over

[Urbanized]

Here's a pretty fair documentation of how the holiday came about, without directly addressing the controversial history surrounding the man himself: The Origins and Traditions of Columbus Day

[dankrutka]

BTW, I'm not at all arguing against renaming Columbus Day or the fact he in many ways was a bad guy.

But once you start pulling at this thread, all of American history will start to unravel pretty fast and the same critical eye and realistic view of history should be applied uniformly.

I think I laid out pretty clearly that Columbus is NOT simply representative of his time.

The key is being able to appreciate and wrestle with the paradoxical nature of American history. The U.S. was one of the most and least free nations in the world when founded. We have been on a constant journey to live up to our own equality ideals set forth in the Declaration, ignored by the Constitution, brought back to life with the Reconstruction amendments, and struggled with to this day. History is complicated. In fact, I'd argue that the entire nature of historical inquiry is about the continual process of unraveling and reweaving our history with our present lives.

[soonerguru]

I am deeply embarrassed by the votes of a couple of people I greatly respect. This should have passed; there would have been absolutely no negative consequences from such a vote. It is a cold backhand of indifference. This is the kind of symbolic gesture that means a great deal to some people. And it's the kind of symbolism that communicates that OKC is not a very inclusive, tolerant place. Bad vote.

[hfry]

I'm curious as to why it had to fall on colombus day? It would have passed without a doubt if they had just chosen a different day.

[AP]

The point was to replace Columbus Day. Because of the whole genocide of indigenous people deal.

[hfry]

There is no doubt Colombo was a bad person that did bad things, but as a society the second we begin to judge the past by morales of today we have to do it for everyone. I am more than for an Indigenous peoples day but there is no doubt there are many things the native americans did they are considered wrong in todays world. So we replace one evil with another? Colombo shouldn't be remembered for the horrors he inflicted but it is proper to remember him for sailing to the America's and starting what would be the colonization of this side of the world. But that's just my opinion, I wouldn't have been upset if they had voted in favor but it seems to have been blown up into a far bigger deal than it is.

[BoulderSooner]

The point was to replace Columbus Day. Because of the whole genocide of indigenous people deal.

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

[Jersey Boss]

It seems that the Italian American lobby has more influence with the mayor and his allies than the Native American lobby does. Fuhgedaboutit.

[Jersey Boss]

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

[Ginkasa]

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

The postal system is federal. That doesn't change that OKC and OK in general do not recognize Columbus Day as a holiday. Boulder's point was that the argument isn't really "Let's change a day about Columbus to being a day about Native Americans," but instead "Let's create a day that recognizes Native Americans." Changing the name of a holiday and creating a holiday are two separate things.

[AP]

The reason it had to fall on Columbus day is what I was addressing. I'm not sure why this is hard to figure out.

[dankrutka]

There is no doubt Colombo was a bad person that did bad things, but as a society the second we begin to judge the past by morales of today we have to do it for everyone. I am more than for an Indigenous peoples day but there is no doubt there are many things the native americans did they are considered wrong in todays world. So we replace one evil with another? Colombo shouldn't be remembered for the horrors he inflicted but it is proper to remember him for sailing to the America's and starting what would be the colonization of this side of the world. But that's just my opinion, I wouldn't have been upset if they had voted in favor but it seems to have been blown up into a far bigger deal than it is.

People keep bringing up this point, but I don't think it has any merit. Columbus was considered terrible in his own day. And he is also tied not only with individual brutal acts, but starting systemic acts like the Atlantic Slave Trade. There are tons of people of Columbus' Day who did none of the things he did and had none of the negative influence that he did. The reason there is such a protest against Columbus is because his acts were so heinous in any time period. If you don't believe me then read Barolome de las Casas' History of the Indies where he writes about the incredible inhumanity of Columbus' actions... and he was of there... in Columbus' Day.... applying his fifteenth century morals.

[dankrutka]

Except that is a flawed premise. Okc doesn't have Columbus Day. So it would have been creating new day.

If the council voted no for the second Monday in November to be forever called Vietnam refugee day in Okc. Would that mean that are "not inclusive" Of course not.

This is people playing bad politics and political correctness to make something out of nothing

If this state is going to brand itself Native America then at least honor the wishes of indigenous peoples when it comes to a man who believed that slavery, rape, mutilation, and genocide were acceptable towards Native peoples. Our country mythologized Columbus. Setting the record straight and being historically accurate is not PC.

[Jersey Boss]

The postal system is federal. That doesn't change that OKC and OK in general do not recognize Columbus Day as a holiday. Boulder's point was that the argument isn't really "Let's change a day about Columbus to being a day about Native Americans," but instead "Let's create a day that recognizes Native Americans." Changing the name of a holiday and creating a holiday are two separate things.

Yes the postal system is federal, but mail is still not delivered locally. What are the ramifications to the OKC government to declare Oct. 12 Native Peoples Day? There are entities in Oklahoma that observe Columbus Day and you only need to travel as far as the Cleveland County Courthouse in Norman to find one. OKC could be a leader here and instead leaves Anadarko to assume this role.

[Jersey Boss]

The reason it had to fall on Columbus day is what I was addressing. I'm not sure why this is hard to figure out.

The reason being is that Columbus should not be honored with a day, anymore than Jackson should be honored on currency. Oh, wait a minute....

[Ginkasa]

Yes the postal system is federal, but mail is still not delivered locally. What are the ramifications to the OKC government to declare Oct. 12 Native Peoples Day? There are entities in Oklahoma that observe Columbus Day and you only need to travel as far as the Cleveland County Courthouse in Norman to find one. OKC could be a leader here and instead leaves Anadarko to assume this role.

1) Mail is not delivered locally because it is entirely a federal system. The federal government runs the mail system and determines whether the mail runs. It has nothing to do with OKC or OK in general.

2) The Cleveland County Courthouse has nothing to do with OKC, which is the entity being discussed.

3) I don't really have a particular dog in the argument of Indigenous People's Day vs. Columbus Day or whether the city council acted correctly or not.. However, I recognize that there is a difference in renaming an currently recognized holiday and creating a new holiday as stated in BoulderSooner's post. I felt that you, in the post I initially replied to, either misunderstood Boulder's post, or were being intellectually dishonest in your response to his post. Considering your further comments regarding federal government vs. local government, I'm tending to lean towards the notion that you were and still are being intellectual dishonest regarding this topic in the interest of simplifying this discussion to being a strictly two sided "good guys vs. bad guys" in which everyone who doesn't strictly agree with you is a "bad guy." Please feel free to correct if I am incorrect in this assessment.

[Jersey Boss]

1) Mail is not delivered locally because it is entirely a federal system. The federal government runs the mail system and determines whether the mail runs. It has nothing to do with OKC or OK in general.

2) The Cleveland County Courthouse has nothing to do with OKC, which is the entity being discussed.

3) I don't really have a particular dog in the argument of Indigenous People's Day vs. Columbus Day or whether the city council acted correctly or not.. However, I recognize that there is a difference in renaming an currently recognized holiday and creating a new holiday as stated in BoulderSooner's post. I felt that you, in the post I initially replied to, either misunderstood Boulder's post, or were being intellectually dishonest in your response to his post. Considering your further comments regarding federal government vs. local government, I'm tending to lean towards the notion that you were and still are being intellectual dishonest regarding this topic in the interest of simplifying this discussion to being a strictly two sided "good guys vs. bad guys" in which everyone who doesn't strictly agree with you is a "bad guy." Please feel free to correct if I am incorrect in this assessment.

Ok, I guess I can say I do not understand the difference between renaming a currently recognized holiday and creating a new one. What are the differences? So if the holiday is not recognized by OKC does that mean we are creating a new one? Or is the fact that it is recognized elsewhere mean we are renaming one? Not being dishonest here. As to your second point , I was responding to your statement that Oklahoma in general does not recognize CD, but in fact many courthouses are closed. My point was that OKC being the capital city of OK would be sending a message across the state of why Columbus Day should not be observed anywhere in the state.

[Mel]

It seems that the Italian American lobby has more influence with the mayor and his allies than the Native American lobby does. Fuhgedaboutit.

They made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

[Ginkasa]

Ok, I guess I can say I do not understand the difference between renaming a currently recognized holiday and creating a new one. What are the differences? So if the holiday is not recognized by OKC does that mean we are creating a new one? Or is the fact that it is recognized elsewhere mean we are renaming one? Not being dishonest here. As to your second point , I was responding to your statement that Oklahoma in general does not recognize CD, but in fact many courthouses are closed. My point was that OKC being the capital city of OK would be sending a message across the state of why Columbus Day should not be observed anywhere in the state.

So, first, there are multiple different governments operating in Oklahoma. I specifically mentioned the Oklahoma state government and the discussion is generally about the Oklahoma City government. Neither entity recognizes Columbus Day as a holiday. There are still a myriad number of other entities that may or may not recognize Columbus Day locally. Cleveland County may recognize Columbus Day, I don't know, but it has no basis on any other entity (i.e. the Cleveland County Courthouse has no bearing on whether Oklahoma or Oklahoma City recognize Columbus Day). Additionally, the federal government does recognize Columbus Day and those aspects of the federal government, such as the United States Postal Service, will be closed regardless of their location.

So, for the Oklahoma City Council to recognize October 12th as Indigenous People's Day, it would, for the purposes of Oklahoma City specifically, be creating a new holiday. There would then have to be, I presume, discussions over what exactly it would be mean for 10/12 to be this holiday. Do they close government offices for an additional day a year? Do they get rid of some other holiday to make room? Should there be come city sponsored celebration, or is it just a day off?

An additional aspect to consider is this: In a lot of the discussions I've seen on this topic, the general idea seems to be how tragic it is that Columbus is recognized as a hero when he was, apparently, a monster. Celebrating the people he victimized is offered as an alternative. Since OKC doesn't celebrate Columbus as a hero (at least, not with a holiday), does it really say the same thing to add a holiday for Indigenous People as if they were replacing Columbus Day with it?

Again, I don't have a personal stake in either "side" here, but I also don't want it to be simplified into a "us vs. them" type of conversation as to many internet discussions, including on this fine website, tend to be.

[Jersey Boss]

In reading your post I see how we got to talking past each other. From all I have read, the resolution in question called for Oct. 12 to be an observance. I did not read anything about wanting to make it an official holiday, paid or otherwise. in fact OU observed Oct. 12 this way and school was in session. I believe OKC could have similarily "observed" this day without making it an official holiday. While I do not know positive, I would be willing to bet that the Council passes observances of days such as April 19, or National Prayer Day. As you, I have no dog in this fight, but the actions of the council do not put the city in a good light. I have not seen or heard any member who voted "no" defend their vote.

[Snowman]

Columbus Day still occurs in OKC as last time I checked the banks were closed and the mail was not delivered. It is just that the local government does not observe it. So what is your issue against the local government recognizing a day for native peoples on this date?

While many banks do follow federal holidays, they are not required to do so, so some banks do opt to stay open on Columbus Day.

[soonerguru]

2015 has been a pretty bummer year in OKC, when you consider the previous several. Oil bust, layoffs, demolition after demolition of historic structures, disappointing delays and project scope reductions. Now, the City Council has veered into a direction that makes me uncomfortable. Hopefully this year is just a bump in the road and 2016 is brighter and more encouraging.

We desperately need a new generation of leadership to take over our city government.

[Midtowner]

I try not to get lost too much in these curious little sideshows. Regarding Columbus, maybe Columbus the man isn't what we're really celebrating, but rather we are celebrating the Columbus of classical United States mythology. While Europeans, no doubt, visited North America, Columbus was the guy that first established a permanent foothold. Whether you retroactively support the genocide and destruction which followed, which in the grand scheme of things is not "horrible" as many people seem to want to claim. This is just what happens when a strong culture encounters a weak one--the weaker is exploited. Sometimes that involves genocide, sometimes that involves enslavement, whatever, that's what happens.

China would not be the China it is today had the Khans not made it bleed. Europe would probably never have risen above tribalism and barbarism had the Romans not first laid the groundwork for modern Western civilization. Japan would not be the peaceful nation it is today had the United States not dropped a couple of a-bombs on civilian targets. The United States and just about every, maybe every country in the Americas, North and South, has been responsible for a great deal of bloodshed while colonizing and westernizing the Americas. I don't look back on that and see it as horrible or even regrettable. Native peoples slaughtered other native peoples--some even employed barbaric human sacrifice as part of their religions. It's just what happened.

I don't get the shame and I refuse to feel it for things which were well out of my control. I mean it's nice to be nice, but this "Indigenous Peoples Day" idea to supplant Columbus Day is nothing more than history-shaming people of European descent for events well outside of their control. I'm glad our City Council didn't involve themselves in that mess.

[AP]

This is just what happens when a strong culture encounters a weak one--the weaker is exploited. Sometimes that involves genocide, sometimes that involves enslavement, whatever, that's what happens.

Wow.

[Midtowner]

Wow.

Am I wrong?

Should we protest the Little Caesar's logo because the Romans were genocidal slave owners? There is a new flavor of PC American Exceptionalism out there--and that is to imagine that we are special in that we are the only society which ever had a few warts in its past. Quite a few holidays around the world celebrate events which when a modern lens is applied aren't prime examples of gentility. Just off the top of my head, there's Bastille Day, which is the celebration of what ended up being a violent slaughter of any of the wealthy and educated Frenchmen, women and children not smart enough to flee the country ahead of the Revolution.

And that's not really a strong vs. weak culture, but strong vs. weak ideas. Republicanism vs. Ancient hereditary total monarchy=slaughter. The same thing happened in Russia, which as far as I know, celebrated the fall of the Russian monarchy to the strong Marxist ideas of the Bolsheviks. Stuff happens, and if you are going to whine about every little thing, you just lack historical perspective.