Christopher Columbus Day in okc may be over

[SouthSide]

"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

[Swake]

"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

Then there's this:

Several accounts of cruelty and murder include Spaniards testing the sharpness of blades on Native people by cutting them in half, beheading them in contests and throwing Natives into vats of boiling soap. There are also accounts of suckling infants being lifted from their mother’s breasts by Spaniards, only to be dashed headfirst into large rocks.
Bartolome De Las Casas, a former slave owner who became Bishop of Chiapas, described these exploits. “Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight as no age can parallel,” he wrote. “My eyes have seen these acts so foreign to human nature that now I tremble as I write.”

and

Columbus forced the Natives to work in gold mines until exhaustion. Those who opposed were beheaded or had their ears cut off.

In the provinces of Cicao all persons over 14 had to supply at least a thimble of gold dust every three months and were given copper necklaces as proof of their compliance. Those who did not fulfill their obligation had their hands cut off, which were tied around their necks while they bled to death—some 10,000 died handless.

In two years’ time, approximately 250,000 Indians on Haiti were dead. Many deaths included mass suicides or intentional poisonings or mothers killing their babies to avoid persecution.

and

In the year 1500, Columbus wrote: “A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.”

and

In the early years of Columbus’ conquests there were butcher shops throughout the Caribbean where Indian bodies were sold as dog food. There was also a practice known as the montería infernal, the infernal chase, or manhunt, in which Indians were hunted by war-dogs.

These dogs—who also wore armor and had been fed human flesh, were a fierce match for the Indians. Live babies were also fed to these war dogs as sport, sometimes in front of horrified parents.

[Edgar]

Outside of the 100 year anniversary, I do not remember 89 Day being celebrated.

Norman has a parade, and the new bridge spanning I-35 is embossed with a land run frieze.

[fromdust]

If you've never read Howard Zinn's chapter on Columbus then give it a read: Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress

Columbus is incredible important historically for several reasons, but we shouldn't celebrate such brutality.

Well, coming from Zinn we know it will be unbiased and historically accurate, lol

[dankrutka]

"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

My point is more complicated. I'm not romanticizing indigenous peoples as more pure or perfect. I'm pointing out out that empire and large-scale imperialism is particular to European cultures until more recently. It's very complicated and my point isn't to point the finger as to good/bad. Anyway, that's another discussion for another day.

[trousers]

My point is more complicated. I'm not romanticizing indigenous peoples as more pure or perfect. I'm pointing out out that empire and large-scale imperialism is particular to European cultures until more recently. It's very complicated and my point isn't to point the finger as to good/bad. Anyway, that's another discussion for another day.

Not so sure I agree with this.
Darius I/II, Genghis & Kublai Khan, Attila, the Incas.
To me there is a human propensity to empire building, generally only restrained by the resources available.

[dankrutka]

Not so sure I agree with this.
Darius I/II, Genghis & Kublai Khan, Attila, the Incas.
To me there is a human propensity to empire building, generally only restrained by the resources available.

It's a complex discussion, but to not derail too far off topic, I'll just say I don't think it's simply human propensity because their are many, many human societies that showed little interest in expansionism that had the means to attempt it. Of course, history books highlight empires more than small-scale communities. Anyway, it's a another discussion.

[dankrutka]

OKC City Council votes down recognizing Indigenous People's Day. Oklahoma loves branding the state as "Native America" and putting a statute on its domes, but ignores indigenous people who come and ask that the city not honor a psychopath who is responsible for starting the slave trade, torturing people for profit, and the genocide of the Arawak peoples. Particularly disappointed in Mick Cornett and Meg Salyer.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okc/st...94732603834368

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okc/st...95127212388352

[Pete]

How they voted:

[dankrutka]

This is just kind of baffling to me. Again, Oklahoma touts it's indigenous history and culture. Columbus is as anti-indigenous as anyone in world history. His transgressions are indefensible. This was a no-brainer. Anadarko passed this resolution already. I just don't get it. Did any of the dissenters provide any defense? All 19 speakers spoke passionately for the resolution. What was their justification for ignoring their constituents?

[AP]

Greenwell has quietly become my favorite council member and this only adds to that. I wish he was councilman of my district.

[Pete]

^

Agree. He's under-appreciated.

[zookeeper]

I wish we could all agree that life, values, everything was different in 1492 than it is in 2015. The Social Left turning this into an issue 500 years later is the kind of PC absurdity that so many people are sick of. Columbus was no psychopath. The slave trade was all over the known world at the time. To even debate in 2015 the morals, ideas, and cultures in 1492 seems crazy to me. The "indigenous peoples" had a violent and sadistic culture as well. So, when will the movement start to rid us of all of that history? This has to stop.

[Pete]

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

[dankrutka]

I wish we could all agree that life, values, everything was different in 1492 than it is in 2015. The Social Left turning this into an issue 500 years later is the kind of PC absurdity that so many people are sick of. Columbus was no psychopath. The slave trade was all over the known world at the time. To even debate in 2015 the morals, ideas, and cultures in 1492 seems crazy to me. The "indigenous peoples" had a violent and sadistic culture as well. So, when will the movement start to rid us of all of that history? This has to stop.

Almost everything you typed is historically incorrect, but hey just throw out liberal PC police and you don't have to make an intelligent argument. The anti-intellectuialism in this country is far more problematic than the PC police problem. People lack information, aren't interested in learning, and use labels like liberal and PC police to avoid doing so.

[zookeeper]

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

Exactly. Remember watching the Lenin statues tumbling in the old Soviet Union? That's what's happening here. Those three names you mentioned above have targets on their long dead (and honorable) backs. But we can't honor such people! Their statues are next on the list. And some probably think I'm kidding. The scrubbing of history to appease the social left is in full swing.

[dankrutka]

Many Founding Fathers, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves.

Of course, and that's a problematic part of our history. But there is absolutely no comparing the genocidal brutality of Columbus to the owning of slaves by Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. It's important to note that even in his historical time, Benjamin Franklin realized slavery was immoral, freed his two slaves, and fought with Quakers to abolish it at the Constitutional Convention. Washington and Jefferson admitted slavery was immoral, but were only willing to part with slaves after their own lives. But there is no doubt that white supremacy was accepted in the day and written into the Constitution in the 3/5th Compromise (not undone until the Reconstruction Amendments that finally made equality a legal aim in the U.S.).

An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period. By any historical time period, Columbus was exceptional for his brutality and greed. Much of Columbus' acceptance comes from mythical tales told about him that were invented to create an American origin story. Unfortunately, if you just read Bartolome de las Casas' History of the Indies (which was written in Columbus' Day by someone who was there - but this history was whitewashed by American nationalists) you will find that he found what Columbus did to be so inhumane that it was utterly unthinkable. It's hard to understand this point unless you have actually read the history, but the way that Columbus and his men would test their swords by cutting of the ears of Arawak people (who were a very peaceable and generous people in Columbus' accounts), cut off the arms of Arawak people who could not provide certain amounts of gold, torture and kill the Arawaks, and, in the end, complete a full genocide of the Arawak peoples, is almost unprecedented historically. Basil Davidson credits Columbus with the starting of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Columbus was a product of his time in some ways, but there are few men in history with such blood on their hands.

[dankrutka]

Exactly. Remember watching the Lenin statues tumbling in the old Soviet Union? That's what's happening here. Those three names you mentioned above have targets on their long dead (and honorable) backs. But we can't honor such people! Their statues are next on the list. And some probably think I'm kidding. The scrubbing of history to appease the social left is in full swing.

Again, you just go back to your anti-intellectualism rant without any facts pertinent to the situation. You realize that "scrubbing of history" is how Columbus became a hero. The historical facts -- written largely from Barolome de las Casas' first hand accounts along with others -- were scrubbed for inaccurate and incomplete historical myths. If you believe in a fuller and accurate history then you should be in favor of the full history of Columbus being told. And he will and should be recognized for (a) sailing to the Americas and creating a lasting connections between the continents, (b) inciting Eurpoean exploration and imperialsm, (c) beginning the Atlantic Slave Trade, and (d) starting and leading a complete genocide of the Arawak peoples. I am not trying to diminish Columbus' historical significance and impact, but I don't know how anyone could call him a hero while actually knowing what he did to other human beings.

[zookeeper]

Again, you just go back to your anti-intellectualism rant without any facts pertinent to the situation.

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

[dankrutka]

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

I'm not referring to your overall political leanings, but your specific posts in this thread. Your posts are historically inaccurate and instead of seeking out more information you respond with some political talking points about liberal PC Police. Avoiding meaningful discussion for narrative is anti-intellectualism. I'm sorry if my posts came across as personal. I just do not see any indication that you know much about Columbus, yet you still characterized everyone in favor making changes as some stereotypical political sheep.

I am not sure if you've lumped me in with some political movement, but I find it rather irrelevant. I have not brought up current day politics, but specific historical and cultural issues. I believe Columbus Day should be replaced not because it is a popular position of some party or group, but because of the facts of the case. I've been pushing for this for well over a decade -- since I was able to study the history surrounding Columbus.

[Ginkasa]

Excuse me? Anti-intellectual? I am solidly on the left when it comes to economics. I am solidly thoughtful and refuse to walk in lockstep on the social issues of the radical left. In other words, I think for myself. That comes from education and from an ability to step back and not accept my politics, values, etc. as part of some "package." Where do you differ from the current day progressive movement? Not accepting the complete takeover of traditional progressive thought by the identity warriors does not an "anti-intellectual" make. With respect, my friend.

Its easy to dismiss an opposing viewpoint as someone "not thinking for themselves." Any reasonable person would clearly not hold those thoughts, so they must therefore be under the sway of some malevolent force with an ulterior motive. You, on the other hand, form your opinions on your very own without any biases or input from other sources, so your opinion must clearly be the only reasonable option.

[adaniel]

Never understood why Christopher Columbus is celebrated. He never discovered America (he got as close as Cuba and Haiti), he never proved the earth was round (most academics back to Roman times had figured that out), and he failed at his job to the point where he was fired by the Spanish crown. And yeah, there's the whole enslaving 50K Indians and cutting their hands off if they didn't find gold and the like. So why exactly does he have a holiday?

History isn't pretty, and I don't like the idea of ignoring some of the less savory parts. But just because you shouldn't ignore it doesn't mean you have to honor it or respect it. Has nothing to do with political correctness. Personally, I feel pretty duped that I learned such fairy tales with no regard for the truth when I was younger.

[Pete]

Of course, and that's a problematic part of our history. But there is absolutely no comparing the genocidal brutality of Columbus to the owning of slaves by Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. It's important to note that even in his historical time, Benjamin Franklin realized slavery was immoral, freed his two slaves, and fought with Quakers to abolish it at the Constitutional Convention. Washington and Jefferson admitted slavery was immoral, but were only willing to part with slaves after their own lives. But there is no doubt that white supremacy was accepted in the day and written into the Constitution in the 3/5th Compromise (not undone until the Reconstruction Amendments that finally made equality a legal aim in the U.S.).

An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period. By any historical time period, Columbus was exceptional for his brutality and greed. Much of Columbus' acceptance comes from mythical tales told about him that were invented to create an American origin story. Unfortunately, if you just read Bartolome de las Casas' History of the Indies (which was written in Columbus' Day by someone who was there - but this history was whitewashed by American nationalists) you will find that he found what Columbus did to be so inhumane that it was utterly unthinkable. It's hard to understand this point unless you have actually read the history, but the way that Columbus and his men would test their swords by cutting of the ears of Arawak people (who were a very peaceable and generous people in Columbus' accounts), cut off the arms of Arawak people who could not provide certain amounts of gold, torture and kill the Arawaks, and, in the end, complete a full genocide of the Arawak peoples, is almost unprecedented historically. Basil Davidson credits Columbus with the starting of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Columbus was a product of his time in some ways, but there are few men in history with such blood on their hands.

Right but there were almost 300 years between the Founding Fathers and Columbus.

And I'll repeat your point here: "An important aspect of historical thinking is understanding values, morals, and issues in their proper time period."

[Pete]

BTW, I'm not at all arguing against renaming Columbus Day or the fact he in many ways was a bad guy.

But once you start pulling at this thread, all of American history will start to unravel pretty fast and the same critical eye and realistic view of history should be applied uniformly.

[Urbanized]

Never understood why Christopher Columbus is celebrated....

It was a Catholic thing. Seriously. Catholics (and Italians) were severely discriminated against even well into the 20th century and pushed Columbus as a Catholic (and Italian) hero.