Streetcar

[gopokes88]

That is rock stupid.

Yeah....and not feasible. I'd rather not give private corps eminent domain, government can sometimes abuses it enough.

[shawnw]

Not at all advocating market-based public transit in today's climate, but just pointing out that OKC's streetcars were initially private and successful. Though when they tried to raise fares the city stepped in and said no. Of course the downside to those streetcar lines being private was that they could then be bought and shutdown, which is unfortunately what happened. I wonder if the city knew then what it knows now if they would have "nationalized" (municipalized?) those lines, and how the city would look today if we never lost the streetcars and interurbans...

[Urban Pioneer]

This really applies to railways in general. Interstate rail was essentially abandoned in lieu of automobiles and the Highway establishment under Eisenhower.

Personally, a total gear head here. I love my cherried out Mustang and I enjoy burning up asphalt. I appreciate the great artistic creativity enveloped in auto history that is so well tied to American designers.

With all that stated, had a more balanced approach been applied to post-war transportation, this country might have been able to grow in a more sustainable way without all of the environmental and social challenges. Arguably, leaving such infrastructure in place, or at least the right-of-ways, might place out city, state, and nation in a different development mode.

[catch22]

I don't think he meant literally "off the shelf" so much as standardized configuration.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

[Paseofreak]

This really applies to railways in general. Interstate rail was essentially abandoned in lieu of automobiles and the Highway establishment under Eisenhower.

Personally, a total gear head here. I love my cherried out Mustang and I enjoy burning up asphalt. I appreciate the great artistic creativity enveloped in auto history that is so well tied to American designers.

With all that stated, had a more balanced approach been applied to post-war transportation, this country might have been able to grow in a more sustainable way without all of the environmental and social challenges. Arguably, leaving such infrastructure in place, or at least the right-of-ways, might place out city, state, and nation in a different development mode.

Several old timers in management at CSX and Norfolk Southern have told me that the death of passenger rail service was Air Mail. Movement of vast quantities of mail by rail on priority passenger routes essentially subsidized passenger rail.

[Urban Pioneer]

That is probably true. The shifts have happened many different ways. Standard Oil and General Motors bought up many American Streetcar systems and purposefully dismantled them to force a shift to buses that they produced, fueled, and maintained. I don't think that what happened here in OKC was the result of that conspiracy... but the city did shift immediately to buses.

In the broader context, the US simply allowed these alignments and baseline infrastructure to be sold, dismantled, or converted to other uses in complete contradiction to post-war Europe which we helped rebuild.

[Jim Kyle]

Actually, Oklahoma Railway had some bus routes in service as far back as 1940! At that time, Portland marked the western boundary of the city, and I lived not far from NW 23 and Independence. We were served by the Linwood trolley line on NW 19, but also by a bus that ran on NW 23 from the 17th Street Station where passengers transferred to the Belle Isle/Culbertson line.

The buses were not at all popular, but the company found them preferable since changing routes was merely a matter of issuing new maps!

[Paseofreak]

Despite all the "local systems" selling out, big rail has viciously held on to their ROW unless forced to sell it by the Feds to continue service by much smaller local lines. Economics forces them to allow the standard of maintenance on mainline track to fall to freight train levels (59 mph max) rather than passenger levels (78 mph max, normally) , but they jealously guard their real estate, even if totally unused. If the economic environment changed, they would gear up for passenger service in a minute. Dollars are the driver, and the bigs still hold out enough hope that they won't turn loose of their real estate. I hope they're right.

[Just the facts]

Not at all advocating market-based public transit in today's climate, but just pointing out that OKC's streetcars were initially private and successful. Though when they tried to raise fares the city stepped in and said no. Of course the downside to those streetcar lines being private was that they could then be bought and shutdown, which is unfortunately what happened. I wonder if the city knew then what it knows now if they would have "nationalized" (municipalized?) those lines, and how the city would look today if we never lost the streetcars and interurbans...

The original streetcar in OKC was just a means to sell real-estate. Once the real-estate was sold they had no plan for on-going maintenance of the system. The further out the developments went the more expensive the streetcar maintenance became, which was counter-productive to the idea of moving further out for cheaper land. It eventually collapsed under it's own weight, much like our road network is doing now. The only difference is the streetcar was privately owned so the owners could just go out of business, but the road network is publicly owned so all we can do is raise taxes while it falls apart anyhow. The moral is - be it private streetcars or public roads, sprawl kills. The City needs to keep that in mind while planning mass transits route down NWExp and out to CHK.

[David]

Do we know exactly what happened to the local Streetcar lines? Why they were dismantled, who was involved, etc.? Last time this came up I read that General Motors only got their hands on and dismantled a fairly small percentage of the streetcars in the country, and I've wondered since then what happened to the rest.

[Just the facts]

I think most of the original lines were just paved over. They didn't even bother to take the track up. You can still see them exposed in a few places. The transition from public mass transit to the private automobile occurred for lots of reasons but I personally feel that at the heart of it was the desire to make people trust in the Federal Reserve System. Everything else was just a means to that end.

[LakeEffect]

...I personally feel that at the heart of it was the desire to make people trust in the Federal Reserve System...

Huh?

[LakeEffect]

duplicate

[Urban Pioneer]

Many were paved over and come to light during major utility projects. Chris Salyer grabbed me one night and showed me on Broadway where some of the asphalt had come up and rails were exposed. There is video somewhere of rails and ballasts being removed from center medians however. So I guess they are gone from the grassy medians.

[Laramie]

Many were paved over and come to light during major utility projects. Chris Salyer grabbed me one night and showed me on Broadway where some of the asphalt had come up and rails were exposed. There is video somewhere of rails and ballasts being removed from center medians however. So I guess they are gone from the grassy medians.

...also heard about the original street car lines being paved over.

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?

[Jim Kyle]

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?

After almost 60 years, they're probably eaten through by rust. The last rail trolley in OKC ran in the spring of 1947.

[Urban Pioneer]

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?

If we were doing a vintage system, its possible that they might be of some use. However, we are doing a new, modern system. The old rails would promise to be a very bumpy ride. Also, we are using a European rail profile. The rail imbedded in the streets is probably old school girder rail. That means slower speeds.

And as Jim points out, the exterior of the rails is probably significantly rusted and degraded. I have photographed old exposed sections when the underpass was demolished on Walker for the new I-40 Crosstown. Will post them one day. From what I remember, they were intact but in pretty bad shape.

[Just the facts]

Huh?

It's a long explination.

[Urban Pioneer]

Laura Eastes did a great job on this piece. A very thorough overview.

Streetcar project is well underway | Oklahoma Gazette

[Plutonic Panda]

I just wanted to say, I've completely changed my view on the wire issue. I went to San Francisco and that city might be the most badass city I've ever been to. In my opinion, it puts LA to shame. I love it and I would love to live there.

It was so amazing how they had those trolleys connected with wires and but they had tires instead of being connected to rail. I have never seen anything like that. The energy and flow was off the charts there. I'm visiting NYC and Chicago this December so I'm excited to see how San Fran compares to either of those cities.

[Plutonic Panda]

dup

[David]

From Steve in today's chat:

hurley 2:39 PM
What changes do you see happening with the streetcar now we have a location for the CC?

Steve Lackmeyer 2:40 PM
I talked to David Todd with the city's MAPS 3 office today and he said they are looking at adding a new spur line to address the new site.

[Just the facts]

Just move the maintenance facility and the problem is solved and we get just that much closer to Capitol Hill. Then sell the current lot and invest in more track.

[no1cub17]

I just wanted to say, I've completely changed my view on the wire issue. I went to San Francisco and that city might be the most badass city I've ever been to. In my opinion, it puts LA to shame. I love it and I would love to live there.

It was so amazing how they had those trolleys connected with wires and but they had tires instead of being connected to rail. I have never seen anything like that. The energy and flow was off the charts there. I'm visiting NYC and Chicago this December so I'm excited to see how San Fran compares to either of those cities.

Glad you liked SF. Interesting, given how much less car-centric it is compared to LA.

[BoulderSooner]

Just move the maintenance facility and the problem is solved and we get just that much closer to Capitol Hill. Then sell the current lot and invest in more track.

The maintenance facility is not moving