BOK Park Plaza

[Architect2010]

I agree that OKC has come a long way since the 1980s and early 1990s, but what city hasn't? Continually comparing OKC to the early 1990s and justifying mistakes because "at least its better than it was then" is not a recipe for progress. It's good to celebrate progress yet learn from mistakes, and the destruction of this block shows that the city hasn't learned from its mistakes. There is a great thread on this subject not too long ago on here. The link that the thread points to makes an interesting statement that Indianapolis today in many respects offers more than Chicago did in 1990. I wonder how Oklahoma City in 2015 compares to Dallas in 1990?

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...c-okc-90s.html

With all of that said, the Preftakes Block buildings are gone forever so the time for lamenting their loss is over. It's time to look forward to a new addition to the OKC skyline and its time for those who want better urbanism and walkability to start gearing up for the next fight. I agree that the west side of downtown has a bright future, especially once Film Row starts to be developed, but it will take some time before we really start to see things come together.

I certainly wasn't comparing us to Oklahoma City of the 1980s and 1990s. I was referring to developments that have occurred within the last 10 years, and they are already contributing to the transformation that is currently taking place on the west side of downtown Oklahoma City.

Bok Park Plaza, regardless of peoples lament for it, is going to be one of the developments that injects tons of life into that area. I agree.

[Architect2010]

I agree that OKC has come a long way since the 1980s and early 1990s, but what city hasn't? Continually comparing OKC to the early 1990s and justifying mistakes because "at least its better than it was then" is not a recipe for progress. It's good to celebrate progress yet learn from mistakes, and the destruction of this block shows that the city hasn't learned from its mistakes. There is a great thread on this subject not too long ago on here. The link that the thread points to makes an interesting statement that Indianapolis today in many respects offers more than Chicago did in 1990. I wonder how Oklahoma City in 2015 compares to Dallas in 1990?

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...c-okc-90s.html

With all of that said, the Preftakes Block buildings are gone forever so the time for lamenting their loss is over. It's time to look forward to a new addition to the OKC skyline and its time for those who want better urbanism and walkability to start gearing up for the next fight. I agree that the west side of downtown has a bright future, especially once Film Row starts to be developed, but it will take some time before we really start to see things come together.

I certainly wasn't comparing us to Oklahoma City of the 1980s and 1990s. I was referring to developments that have occurred within the last 10 years, and they are already contributing to the transformation that is currently taking place.

The west side of downtown really is large if you're talking about its entirety. However the area immediately west of downtown won't take very long to flesh out imagine. It's well on its way.

[HOT ROD]

so are we now going to change the name of this thread from 499 Sheridan to BOK Park Plaza?

[zookeeper]

You are probably correct. That would be a good study to compare with cities like Louisville, Richmond, Jax, etc. I was thinking more Columbus, Nashville, Milwaukee, but those probably aren't fair comparisons.

I don't think people realize how big a city Columbus is. Two Million metro. Cleveland, Cincy, and Columbus are all pretty close in size. Columbus proper is the 14th or 15th biggest city in the country.

[ChrisHayes]

Yeah, but the actual city of Cleveland isn't that big. OKC has close to 250,000 more people than Cleveland, and that gap is widening.

[bchris02]

I don't think people realize how big a city Columbus is. Two Million metro. Cleveland, Cincy, and Columbus are all pretty close in size. Columbus proper is the 14th or 15th biggest city in the country.

Yeah, I would group Columbus with Kansas City, Charlotte, San Antonio and Austin. Oklahoma City is better compared with Memphis, Louisville, Birmingham, and Omaha.

[Pete]

I know we are way off topic but I like this discussion about urban development in peer cities...

Milwaukee was mentioned and some may remember that about 5 years ago I wrote this glowing report on a recent trip there. I was born in MKE and go there regularly for family and I usually do a big walking tour, starting south of downtown and working my way up to what they call the East Side, near UW-Milwaukee, a total of 3-4 miles.

I do this because my parents grew up there and I know lots of history from them and my other family members. Plus, there is tons of infill urban development, converted industrial buildings, etc.

When I last did this circa 2010 I remember saying "I wish OKC had a fraction of their urban development". But now, things have really flipped.

Milwaukee continues to thrive and remains what I believe to be the most underrated city in the U.S. but I think OKC is now easily out-pacing them in terms of new and planned development in the core.

They have had a couple of cool high-rise residential towers go up and a ton of smaller projects but nothing like the number of new living units we have been building. Of course, they already had a lot of housing stock because there are several universities close in and they kept a lot of bars and restaurants even through the low point of white flight in the 60's and 70's.

But the point is that just five years ago I was filled with envy and now I think we've moved past them and I also think we have lots more momentum. I hadn't thought abot that until this topic came up.

[Pete]

One other thing...

Even those who follow this stuff super closely probably don't realize that virtually every single un- and under-developed property in the core is now in play.

OKC now has this legion of developers and investors who are continually scouring the area looking for opportunities. There are so many deals being worked right now, including several that should be announced in the next 1-3 months.

But take any property that has ever crossed your mind when you drive by it and I can assure you there have been 5-10 developers already calling the existing owners.

There are also a ton of restaurant groups running around looking at every interesting property. Lots more of those on the way, too.

At the same time, prices have come up so much that the money being offered is increasingly tempting people to sell, including those that have been operating businesses for extended periods. It's just that we are still talking about hundreds if not thousands of projects and lots of stubborn owners, so this all takes time.

In other words, the ball is now very definitely rolling downhill. Critical mass has been achieved and it's just a matter of time before almost all the vacant and under-utilized properties in the core are redeveloped.

[bradh]

One other thing...

Even those who follow this stuff super closely probably don't realize that virtually every single un- and under-developed property in the core is now in play.

OKC now has this legion of developers and investors who are continually scouring the area looking for opportunities. There are so many deals being worked right now, including several that should be announced in the next 1-3 months.

But take any property that has ever crossed your mind when you drive by it and I can assure you there have been 5-10 developers already calling the existing owners.

There are also a ton of restaurant groups running around looking at every interesting property. Lots more of those on the way, too.

At the same time, prices have come up so much that the money being offered is increasingly tempting people to sell, including those that have been operating businesses for extended periods. It's just that we are still talking about hundreds if not thousands of projects and lots of stubborn owners, so this all takes time.

In other words, the ball is now very definitely rolling downhill. Critical mass has been achieved and it's just a matter of time before almost all the vacant and under-utilized properties in the core are redeveloped.

That's amazing and exciting.

[David]

Dang, that really is exciting.

[Harbinger]

In 2008, I have to admit that I moved away from OKC because I was quite ashamed of this city. I enjoyed my time in Denver, but unfortunately '08 was the great recession and there were no design jobs to be had. Now that I'm back and finishing my masters, I'm giddy to be able to put down roots in OKC. I know we're off topic, but I wanted to echo Pete's sentiment and share that I'm now extremely proud to be in the midst of OKC's evolution.

[KayneMo]

Skyline with BOK Park Plaza.

[csjoerdsma.okc]

Is there somewhere that I can read your report about your Milwaukee trip? I would be very interested. I have lived in OKC for 5 years now, but I grew up in the Madison, WI area. I agree when you say that Milwaukee is one of the most underrated cities in the US. Milwaukee actually is a fantastic city. It has been a few years since I have been there, however, I do know the scope of development there is impressive. As we speak, Northwestern Mutual is building what will be the second tallest building in the state of WI as their new HQ in downtown Milwaukee. The architect is Pickard Chilton, same as Devon and 499 Sheridan here in OKC. They also start construction on their streetcar route next month in October. I believe, from what I always noticed when I lived in WI, what I think part of the reason Milwaukee is so underrated, is because it sits in the shadow of Chicago. I know there is about 90 miles between downtown MKE and downtown Chicago, but Chicago is many times larger. Whenever we went to the "big city" it wasn't to MKE, it was always to Chicago. When I turned 18 and moved to La Crosse, WI for school, we still never went to MKE, if we weren't going to Minneapolis, we still went to Chicago, without ever having to even travel through MKE. I mean, I LOVE Chicago, always have, always will, but I always thought it was too bad Chicago stole a lot of the limelight from MKE. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the impression I always got, and other people in WI have mentioned the same thing.

[OkieNate]

Thanks KayneMO! That is really going to stretch the skyline to the west! Hooray for a little balance!

[UnFrSaKn]

The Northwestern Mutual tower is what BOK Park Plaza should have been, not a ripoff of an existing building in New York.

[csjoerdsma.okc]

Completely agree! Never thought of it until you mentioned it UnFrSaKn, but BOK Park Plaza does look like a smaller version of the United Nations Building, doesn't it?

[Spartan]

I don't think people realize how big a city Columbus is. Two Million metro. Cleveland, Cincy, and Columbus are all pretty close in size. Columbus proper is the 14th or 15th biggest city in the country.

Cbus is also seeing the second largest numerical population increase (after NYC) in the Northern U.S. Indy and Mpls are also fast-growing. These cities aren't building new skyscrapers, for the most part, and most high-rise development is actually residential. They've realized mid-rise scale is so important to becoming an urban city. An urban city is when nearly every neighborhood in the city proper form an urban fabric. Indy still doesn't really belong in this class.

OKC, forsaking that mid-rise "fabric" for a possible high-rise skyline, is not an insignificant development. We know immediately what is lost, but beyond that the adverse implications of forsaking that fabric won't be realized until this area is "finished-out." And at that point, I don't think we're going on like what we see.

These just aren't very sophisticated developments.

[bchris02]

Cbus is also seeing the second largest numerical population increase (after NYC) in the Northern U.S. Indy and Mpls are also fast-growing. These cities aren't building new skyscrapers, for the most part, and most high-rise development is actually residential. They've realized mid-rise scale is so important to becoming an urban city. An urban city is when nearly every neighborhood in the city proper form an urban fabric. Indy still doesn't really belong in this class.

OKC, forsaking that mid-rise "fabric" for a possible high-rise skyline, is not an insignificant development. We know immediately what is lost, but beyond that the adverse implications of forsaking that fabric won't be realized until this area is "finished-out." And at that point, I don't think we're going on like what we see.

These just aren't very sophisticated developments.

Oklahoma City has some awesome, exciting mid-sized developments happening right now. Things like the Metropolitan, LIFT, Steelyard, Residences at 21c, etc. All of the smaller infill projects such as the SOSA developments, the new mixed-use development in the Plaza, Via Paseo, etc are also exciting. If you want to be excited about OKC, just walk the streets of some of the near northside neighborhoods. Unfortunately, every single one of the "big ticket" developments in OKC are making a big mistake of some kind. There are many in this city who are content with the CBD being nothing more than a corporate business park, active from 8-5 but dead after everyone returns nightly to their McMansions north of the Kilpatrick and unfortunately, that is the mindset of the people with the most money and power here.

[DenverPoke]

Oklahoma City has some awesome, exciting mid-sized developments happening right now. Things like the Metropolitan, LIFT, Steelyard, Residences at 21c, etc. All of the smaller infill projects such as the SOSA developments, the new mixed-use development in the Plaza, Via Paseo, etc are also exciting. If you want to be excited about OKC, just walk the streets of some of the near northside neighborhoods. Unfortunately, every single one of the "big ticket" developments in OKC are making a big mistake of some kind. There are many in this city who are content with the CBD being nothing more than a corporate business park, active from 8-5 but dead after everyone returns nightly to their McMansions north of the Kilpatrick and unfortunately, that is the mindset of the people with the most money and power here.

Those "awesome" developments you mention are mostly stick-built junk that probably won't age well. Here in Denver we've had thousands upon thousands of those units built in the last 5 years and generally regard them as future affordable housing.

The smaller infill projects that are transforming the neighborhoods are exciting and IMO will have just as much benefit as those other larger projects, long-term.

[Spartan]

Oklahoma City has some awesome, exciting mid-sized developments happening right now. Things like the Metropolitan, LIFT, Steelyard, Residences at 21c, etc. All of the smaller infill projects such as the SOSA developments, the new mixed-use development in the Plaza, Via Paseo, etc are also exciting. If you want to be excited about OKC, just walk the streets of some of the near northside neighborhoods. Unfortunately, every single one of the "big ticket" developments in OKC are making a big mistake of some kind. There are many in this city who are content with the CBD being nothing more than a corporate business park, active from 8-5 but dead after everyone returns nightly to their McMansions north of the Kilpatrick and unfortunately, that is the mindset of the people with the most money and power here.

I think this is probably one of the more even-keeled posts in this thread, fair to both sides, hopefully agreeable to all. There is some yin with the yang in OKC.

[Spartan]

Oklahoma City has some awesome, exciting mid-sized developments happening right now. Things like the Metropolitan, LIFT, Steelyard, Residences at 21c, etc. All of the smaller infill projects such as the SOSA developments, the new mixed-use development in the Plaza, Via Paseo, etc are also exciting. If you want to be excited about OKC, just walk the streets of some of the near northside neighborhoods. Unfortunately, every single one of the "big ticket" developments in OKC are making a big mistake of some kind. There are many in this city who are content with the CBD being nothing more than a corporate business park, active from 8-5 but dead after everyone returns nightly to their McMansions north of the Kilpatrick and unfortunately, that is the mindset of the people with the most money and power here.

I think this is probably one of the more even-keeled posts in this thread, fair to both sides, hopefully agreeable to all. There is some yin with the yang in OKC.

[Urban Pioneer]

Completely agree! Never thought of it until you mentioned it UnFrSaKn, but BOK Park Plaza does look like a smaller version of the United Nations Building, doesn't it?

Pretty cool to think that we are going to have a Secretariat Building copy here. I always liked "true" International Style. However, the Omaha building is stately and impressive. The curve is beautiful.

[Pete]

Oklahoma City has some awesome, exciting mid-sized developments happening right now. Things like the Metropolitan, LIFT, Steelyard, Residences at 21c, etc. All of the smaller infill projects such as the SOSA developments, the new mixed-use development in the Plaza, Via Paseo, etc are also exciting. If you want to be excited about OKC, just walk the streets of some of the near northside neighborhoods. Unfortunately, every single one of the "big ticket" developments in OKC are making a big mistake of some kind..

Specifically what 'big ticket developments are you talking about?

[bchris02]

Specifically what 'big ticket developments are you talking about?

499 Sheridan, OG&E Center, and potentially the convention center depending on how it turns out.

[Bellaboo]

Completely agree! Never thought of it until you mentioned it UnFrSaKn, but BOK Park Plaza does look like a smaller version of the United Nations Building, doesn't it?

It is actually a replication of the Lever Building in NYC, which had significance in it's day.