Christopher Columbus Day in okc may be over

[mugofbeer]

8

If you understand the history around Columbus then changing Columbus Day is a nonbrainer. Columbus should be taught for his accomplishments, but also for his brutality and greed. He just shouldn't be turned into a hero. The Land Run similarly needs a complex telling, which reenactments rarely lead to.

If you look at my earlier posts, I pretty much agree with your final post. However, when people start to propose to change or eliminate American institutions, it usually boils down to concern over someone being "offended" or more far left self-loathing. The poster proposed doing away with 89er day which I totally oppose. If we want to make it a day to more stress the actual history, then fine. Elimination is to reduce the unique way our state came about for the sake of being PC.

[hoya]

Columbus was a prick, but you also have to understand that in 1492, not only did Columbus sail the ocean blue, but Spain finally managed to drive out Muslim invaders after 500 years. They needed money and they were filled with religious fervor. That's the kind of thing that happens after being on the receiving end of a half-millennium of holy war. Was he a good guy? No, probably not. Do we need to make it "indigenous peoples day"? No, that name sucks and it's just more liberal hand-wringing. "Oh my! Someone was oppressed somewhere a long time ago! We should rename something to show the guilt we feel!" Judging historical figures by modern standards is really a waste of time.

Not all the natives were super nice people. Remember that there were still guys chopping people's heads off and ripping their hearts out on top of pyramids in Mexico. Those are some of the indigenous people you're wanting to name a day after.

[Swake]

I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either.

But Columbus didn't "discover" the Americas and he was a particularly vile and evil person. Even for his time. The little story you were told as a child is a lie.

[Edgar]

I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either.

You don't think it's rather insensitive to glorify the land run with myopic celebrations knowing what it meant to the residents of Indian territory. as long as the grass grows and the water flows right? Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration and peace between the Pilgrims and Wampanoag which actually lasted some years until the next wave of violent Europeans.

[dankrutka]

Columbus was a prick, but you also have to understand that in 1492, not only did Columbus sail the ocean blue, but Spain finally managed to drive out Muslim invaders after 500 years. They needed money and they were filled with religious fervor. That's the kind of thing that happens after being on the receiving end of a half-millennium of holy war. Was he a good guy? No, probably not. Do we need to make it "indigenous peoples day"? No, that name sucks and it's just more liberal hand-wringing. "Oh my! Someone was oppressed somewhere a long time ago! We should rename something to show the guilt we feel!" Judging historical figures by modern standards is really a waste of time.

Not all the natives were super nice people. Remember that there were still guys chopping people's heads off and ripping their hearts out on top of pyramids in Mexico. Those are some of the indigenous people you're wanting to name a day after.

What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

[dankrutka]

8

If you look at my earlier posts, I pretty much agree with your final post. However, when people start to propose to change or eliminate American institutions, it usually boils down to concern over someone being "offended" or more far left self-loathing. The poster proposed doing away with 89er day which I totally oppose. If we want to make it a day to more stress the actual history, then fine. Elimination is to reduce the unique way our state came about for the sake of being PC.

I agree that we mostly agree. I don't agree that all American institutions need to be maintained. The only constant is change, right? The U.S. has a lot of great traditions and holidays, but some that should be reassessed.

I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

[hoya]

What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

We aren't creating Columbus Day today. It has been around for a long time. The standard of creating a new holiday is different from that of maintaining an existing one. At the least, Columbus is an incredibly important historical figure. I agree, if we were picking guys to get their own holiday today, he probably wouldn't get one. But we aren't.

Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then. And when you're talking about "indigenous people day", I think the actions of other indigenous people should be taken into account. Plus it's still a stupid name.

You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

It's a wholly liberal thing. I think anyone who reads my posts knows that I am very moderate, and rarely throw around those labels. But this is one of the big problems with the left wing. The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

[hoya]

I agree that we mostly agree. I don't agree that all American institutions need to be maintained. The only constant is change, right? The U.S. has a lot of great traditions and holidays, but some that should be reassessed.

I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

How many Native American kids who complain to their teachers are being forced to participate in a Land Run re-enactment?

[jerrywall]

If we're gonna replace Columbus day with something, then we should hold whomever we name it after to similar standards. Did they ever war with, wipe out, enslave, or kill others?

Hrm, indigenous people are out I guess.

[mugofbeer]

You don't think it's rather insensitive to glorify the land run with myopic celebrations knowing what it meant to the residents of Indian territory. as long as the grass grows and the water flows right? Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration and peace between the Pilgrims and Wampanoag which actually lasted some years until the next wave of violent Europeans.

No. I don't, because to accept your point then it would also be myoplic to celebrate the birth of the US. I think we all agree Native Americans have lost a way of life. That doesn't mean I'm going to not celebrate the unique way OK statehood came about. I'm fine with telling the truth but the truth is that it was the start of a pretty successful state.

While we're at it, go back and read the other recent posts. Others have correctly stated that Native Americans were not all peace-loving, friendly pacefists. There were violent, expansive tribes all over America that frequently attacked other tribes as well as Europeans.

[Jersey Boss]

The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

I would opine that based on the demographics of the Oklahoma GOP that there is not any empathy for the reasons people are seeking a change. And while Columbus day has been around a "long time", that is relative. It was not until the 1930's it was made a holiday. It was made a holiday at the behest of the Knights of Columbus and an influential Italian leader in NYC. As to your contention that this is "liberal handwringing" 2 of the 4 states that do not observe are Alaska and South Dakota. neither of which is a bastion of liberalism.

Personally I feel that "Custer" County is a bigger affront to the indigenous population of our state.

[Martin]

let's just agree to move 'leif erikson day' a few days over and call it even steven. -M

[jerrywall]

let's just agree to move 'leif erikson day' a few days over and call it even steven. -M

That's October 9th.

[Jersey Boss]

"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

[Martin]

That's October 9th.

hence we'll just move it a 'few days over' to match columbus day -M

[Martin]

"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

in all seriousness, i don't have a problem with places that choose to celebrate "discoverers' day." that way those who feel that the holiday is too euro-centric can celebrate the discoverer of their choice. -M

[mugofbeer]

"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

Sounds too much like Hannukwanzamas

[dankrutka]

How many Native American kids who complain to their teachers are being forced to participate in a Land Run re-enactment?

How many don't? Do you know? I would suspect that there are plenty of Native Americans who are unhappy about it.

[dankrutka]

If we're gonna replace Columbus day with something, then we should hold whomever we name it after to similar standards. Did they ever war with, wipe out, enslave, or kill others?

Hrm, indigenous people are out I guess.

There's a huge difference between someone responsible for starting a completed genocide of a people. And a people having warfare. Which it's worth pointing out that indigenous people's warfare was limited in scope. Tribal warfare is much more akin to gang territorial shifts. Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them.

[dankrutka]

No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then.

I suspect you actually haven't studied Columbus much or you wouldn't make such ignorant claims. The things Columbus did were exceptional for his time. His brutality was incredible. He ordered the cutting off of the body parts of indigenous people's who could not find him gold. He stole money from his own crewmates. And he did it all in God's name. Columbus and the men under him were particularly brutal and led to the genocide of a people. There are almost no instances in the history of earth where a genocide was actually completed and those targetted people -- the Arawaks or Tainos -- ceased to exist. So no, Columbus was not "the same as everyone else back then." And that's why this discussion is happening.

[jerrywall]

There's a huge difference between someone responsible for starting a completed genocide of a people. And a people having warfare. Which it's worth pointing out that indigenous people's warfare was limited in scope. Tribal warfare is much more akin to gang territorial shifts. Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them.

My point is, there's barely any person or people who will stand up to the retrospective passage of time. Standards and societal norms evolve. Now, that's not in defense of Columbus. Personally, if anything, just rename it to "Monday". I'm sick of all these non-holiday holidays.

[Dubya61]

What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

Since I respect your opinions greatly, I would like to reply to this and leave you anonymous. I think that as long as we teach the truth when we teach history (and I think that's what you're advocating) that's enough. Make sure you teach it all and try to avoid opinionizing (I'll TM that word, thank you). I agree with your earlier posts (and some other articles I read on why it should be almost ANYTHING else besides "Columbus" day). Maybe it's time we go the English route and just call the federal holiday in October a generic bank holiday. (or Explorer day (wouldn't Ford love that one), Discovery day -- almost doesn't matter, really. We don't really celebrate the true meaning of most of the named federal holidays anymore).

[Dubya61]

I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

It's almost off topic, but one of my favorite books which I recommend like a Mardi Gras float occupant throws out beads is: Hal Borland -- When the Legends Die. A great read, even if directed towards a younger audience than most here.

[Snowman]

'89 Day celcbrations need to go the way of Columbus Day. Our fellow native citizens don't find the history quaint. remember Fallin's hilarious speech at the gop convention about the land run participants proved ambitious people didn't need help from their government to succeed.

Outside of the 100 year anniversary, I do not remember 89 Day being celebrated.

[Swake]

We aren't creating Columbus Day today. It has been around for a long time. The standard of creating a new holiday is different from that of maintaining an existing one. At the least, Columbus is an incredibly important historical figure. I agree, if we were picking guys to get their own holiday today, he probably wouldn't get one. But we aren't.



No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then. And when you're talking about "indigenous people day", I think the actions of other indigenous people should be taken into account. Plus it's still a stupid name.



It's a wholly liberal thing. I think anyone who reads my posts knows that I am very moderate, and rarely throw around those labels. But this is one of the big problems with the left wing. The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

You need to read this. He was a monster even in his own time.
8 Myths and Atrocities About Christopher Columbus and Columbus Day - ICTMN.com