Dr. Ed Shadid wants a conversation about legalized prostitution in Oklahoma City.

[Urbanized]

...Would it 'grow the industry'? Most likely it would - to a degree. It would certainly entice individuals into the sex industry whom otherwise probably would not have. However, its obviously not too big of a draw because Nevada only has a few hundred legally licensed prostitutes in the entire state. Plus, the last time I checked there were only just around two dozen legal brothels operating (and the number tends to shrink each year, not grow). The negative impact on the state would depend on the level of legalization - Do we have large organized brothels and red light districts or do we only allow unorganized one-on-one commercial transactions in the privacy of one's home or motel room?

As far as the state's reputation and tourism.... Being known as the place to buy women is also a reason Amsterdam's legalized brothels are shrinking in number as opposed to expanding.

Having legalized prostitution in rural parts of Nevada certainly hasn't resulted in people clamoring to populate those areas because they see them as a financial mecca or a place to raise a family or retire...

I think the difference is that those brothels are barely driveable from anywhere. If you are going to travel to Nevada to frequent prostitutes you pretty much have to fly. Sure, some folks do that, but probably most of their business consists of people visiting Vegas for Vegas, who then seek the novelty of the brothels outside of town while they are there.

The X factor in the discussion is Dallas and the large population in North Texas. There is a reason why WinStar has the largest casino floor in the entire world, and it has precious little to do with Oklahomans. Dallas-to-OKC is not even a day trip. Someone could take the morning off, drive to OKC and be back at their desk in DFW by noon. Beyond that there are millions more people in all directions, an easy drive from here.

The other thing that probably keeps the number of legal sex workers down in Nevada is that ILLEGAL prostitution is in many ways decriminalized. There is certainly apparently no shortage of escorts in Vegas; walk down the Strip and see how many thinly-disguised solicitations are shoved in your hand in the form of flyers. If it were actually LEGAL in Vegas I'm sure the number would be in the thousands, not in the hundreds, and those are the people already working there.

I honestly believe if you made OKC an island of legal prostitution in the central U.S. you would have a pretty huge industry very quickly. And those aren't the kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for.

[Laramie]

Got to admit, I've learned more from the voices on this thread about prostitution than I ever wanted to know.

Brian Bates is someone who understands what many of these women have endured as well as many of the legal aspects. He has compassion for the vice grip placed upon many young women who became victims trapped in this tapestry; he has been there--also reached out to them.

If you don't think that Brian hasn't put his own health & life in danger or been scrutinized by our own OCPD because he happen to catch one of their own; then, you need to re-evaluate the work he has done for our community.

The videos that are in his collection would allow anyone to retire (live off the interest) if he so chose to sell out for a documentary to a national telecast network--you know he has had offers. He has been featured on MSNBC's 'Caught on Camera' for those of you who are unaware of his national exposure.

Hope many posters on this board have a new perspective of Mr. Bates as a result of the work he has done for our community.

[okatty]

We as citizens can, but Ed is an elected official and I'd rather him not waste time on things that simply aren't going to happen. There's only so much time people will pay attention to local politics, and this is empty calories.

A good debate on what should be in MAPS 4 vs. GO bond is a better use of time.
How to form a private/public partnership to fund HSR from downtown okc to downtown tulsa is a better use of time.

Hell empty calories are my middle name!!

[Stew]

Whatever your take you gotta admit Ed took a bold stand on this one. I freely admit I don't know squat about prostituion. It seems to me though no amount of criminalization will ever stop it so why not figure out the best way to manage it as a society.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
Don't disagree, but not sure City Council is the correct venue for that discussion. As has been mentioned things would REALLY have to change at the state level first, and the national discourse would have to change even before that. If we know one thing about our state government, it's that it doesn't lead when it comes to innovation OR the decriminalization of vice.

[Bunty]

I honestly believe if you made OKC an island of legal prostitution in the central U.S. you would have a pretty huge industry very quickly. And those aren't the kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for.

The chronic lack of support for education in Oklahoma, leading to not enough qualified workers, isn't going to support the decent kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for. However, it does work to make Oklahoma no. 3 for minimum wage jobs. At least most prostitutes would surely make a lot more than minimum wage.

[Bunty]

All good points here. With that in mind, even as someone who is socially moderate-to-liberal, I cannot in any way shape or form support legalized prostitution.

Then what do you want done to better fight prostitution? Impose mandatory jail sentences of at least one year or two for every john and prostitute convicted?

[Roger S]

I freely admit I don't know squat about prostituion. It seems to me though no amount of criminalization will ever stop it so why not figure out the best way to manage it as a society.

Humanities attempts at legislating morals have all been failures. Laws don't stop people from making poor personal decisions. They just place a financial burden on those of us that live our lives responsibly in an attempt to enforce them.

So I agree with this line of thought 100%. Create ways to help those that want to find a way out of the lifestyle, whether they have been forced into it or entered into it of their own free will, but understand that no amount of legislation will ever stop it or rescue everyone from it.

[jerrywall]

Then what do you want done to better fight prostitution? Impose mandatory jail sentences of at least one year or two for every john and prostitute convicted?

And this is why something never gets done. Someone always jumps in with "what's you magic solution". Guess what? There isn't one. Complex social issues require complex solutions. People need to accept this.

1. You have to change the culture. Boys need to be brought up to understand that women aren't property, they aren't "owed" sex, and that sex isn't something you buy. This will take time. Read "rape culture".

2. We have to make progress in the social conditions that force women into prostitution. Rape, abuse, slavery, etc. This has to be address.

3. Yes, penalties should be addressed. Especially for johns, pimps, traffickers, and yes, repeat prostitution offenders.

Public shaming also works well. I'm sure there are other pieces to the solution and probably better ones, that someone like Brian could provide. But demanding a bumper sticker solution to complex problems is why nothing ever gets accomplished.

[BBatesokc]

Humanities attempts at legislating morals have all been failures. Laws don't stop people from making poor personal decisions. They just place a financial burden on those of us that live our lives responsibly in an attempt to enforce them.

So I agree with this line of thought 100%. Create ways to help those that want to find a way out of the lifestyle, whether they have been forced into it or entered into it of their own free will, but understand that no amount of legislation will ever stop it or rescue everyone from it.

While some people (a lot actually) take this as a 'moral issue', it goes way beyond that. I couldn't define morality if I wanted to - it means different things to different people.

It's not as simple as "creating ways to help those what want out...." Those ways already exist and have for some time. We have multiple shelters in this state that will take a prostituted woman in and take care of her. That's the Lifetime Movie script to solving prostitution.

In reality some of our legislation very much makes a positive impact on women victimized by prostitution. Mandatory sentencing and HB1058 are two unbelievable advances in helping to fight this problem.

I also don't get why people feel that since "you're never going to end it" that that means we just have to throw our hands up and legalize it.

[Roger S]

While some people (a lot actually) take this as a 'moral issue', it goes way beyond that. I couldn't define morality if I wanted to - it means different things to different people.

True but the laws are based on someones morality. Someone at some point in time deemed a human selling their body to be immoral and voila... The law was created to try and stop it.

It's not as simple as "creating ways to help those what want out...." Those ways already exist and have for some time. We have multiple shelters in this state that will take a prostituted woman in and take care of her. That's the Lifetime Movie script to solving prostitution.

I never said it would be simple. There is absolutely nothing simple about it. If there was it would not be a problem. If there are already options in place they could be enhanced or increased. As I said... Not all the victims can be saved.

In reality some of our legislation very much makes a positive impact on women victimized by prostitution. Mandatory sentencing and HB1058 are two unbelievable advances in helping to fight this problem.

I am not familiar with what that Bill does but if it defends a humans freedom. Then it is a good law.

I also don't get why people feel that since "you're never going to end it" that that means we just have to throw our hands up and legalize it.

I didn't say throw anyones hands up. I said that legislating morality has never worked to end the behavior that society deems to be immoral.... Prostitution, slavery, and murder have been around since the dawn of humankind on this planet... I'm guessing they will be around until we finally screw up and eradicate ourselves from existence. Despite any laws we pass attempting to stop them.

The funny thing about laws is they don't stop any kind of behavior. They just define how we deal with those that choose to exhibit that behavior.... We can pass a law making human trafficking a capital offense but there will still be people willing to break that law.

[jerrywall]

Opposition to legalization for many is a moral issue, but not what you're stating. For many, like myself, it's not about opposing anything sexual, or folks using their own body. But I sure as hell am morally opposed to sex slavery, human trafficking, and abuse. And that's what legalization would increase.

As you mention, murder and slavery still happen despite laws. Should we legalize those too? Let's just regulate murder better?

[Roger S]

As you mention, murder and slavery still happen despite laws. Should we legalize those too? Let's just regulate murder better?

Well I find that to be an absurd question.... As I said... Laws define how society deals with people that exhibit a certain behavior..... Slavery and murder both deprive a human of their freedom and should be punished severely.

Capital punishment is about as severe a punishment as a law can provide yet it doesn't stop murder... It stops one murderer from ever doing it again.

[jerrywall]

Well, I may have misread your post, but it seemed to imply since the laws don't prevent it, legalize it. I agree, laws don't stop anything. We don't create laws to prevent crimes, we create laws to punish crimes.

That's why laws have to be combined with social reforms.

[Roger S]

We don't create laws to prevent crimes, we create laws to punish crimes.

Yes... That is what I was saying.

[okatty]

This is 5 years old now but deals with issue you guys are discussing.

http://sentencingproject.org/doc/Det...riefing%20.pdf

[OkieDave]

Got to admit, I've learned more from the voices on this thread about prostitution than I ever wanted to know.

Brian Bates is someone who understands what many of these women have endured as well as many of the legal aspects. He has compassion for the vice grip placed upon many young women who became victims trapped in this tapestry; he has been there--also reached out to them.

If you don't think that Brian hasn't put his own health & life in danger or been scrutinized by our own OCPD because he happen to catch one of their own; then, you need to re-evaluate the work he has done for our community.

The videos that are in his collection would allow anyone to retire (live off the interest) if he so chose to sell out for a documentary to a national telecast network--you know he has had offers. He has been featured on MSNBC's 'Caught on Camera' for those of you who are unaware of his national exposure.

Hope many posters on this board have a new perspective of Mr. Bates as a result of the work he has done for our community.

I appreciate the conversation and the contribution of Brian Bates on this thread but this post conflicts with my recollection of events. Wasn't Mr. Bates arrested and convicted on felony conspiracy to engage in prostitution charges after hiring prostitutes to entrap men into soliciting prostitution while Mr. Bates filmed. I thought that there was an agreement with a national television show to buy the film and the disruption of that arrangement among other issues led to retribution against Police Chief Citty where Mr. Bates posted his private info such as address and phone number online etc...
My concern is that shame in this case is not just being used as a deterrent but as a means to profit and more recent efforts to film encounters with a drone may breach the same issues in addition to any potential violation of FAA/city rules.

[Filthy]

This topic will be a tough one to discuss, at almost any level. But, from the posts above I believe everyone is already looking at it all wrong. Whether you are morally "for"......or morally "against" prostitution, it seems as if it is still seen as a taboo trade. Even those that seem to possibly be in favor of said trade, seem to still want to have the "brothels" in certain locations. Or make sure, that the business itself is well marked, and/or "designated" within the community. I guess those in favor would also want there to be some kind of "licensing" of sorts, for those in the profession. In my eyes however, in the true spirit of "Prostitution," a legalized "FREE MARKET" should be just that. Everyone is so Debbie Downer on prostitutes, saying that they were abused at a young age..or that they are enslaved. What if a chick just like the D? Why shouldn't she be able to profit from that? In a new and improved "legalized" World, what would stop a 25 year old married mother of 2, working at Chesapeake during the day, going to church on Sundays...feeling the need to make some extra cash? She should be able to make a quick buck on the way home from work. Maybe she is at the mall, and sees a pair of $400 shoes that she really wants..but instead of taking money out of her families pocket....and spending their hard earned money on shoes....she can pick out some random guy there at the mall, and solicit him. Take him to the parking lot....get banged.......make a few hundred dollars, and get some new shoes....all the while, making some random guy happy as well. No harm...no foul. Yet...Everyone wants to cast judgement upon a prostitute, and say that she must have been abused as a child? Or that she is enslaved? That's a crappy mindset. In a Free Market..anyone that wants to buck, should be able to buck...and if they're good at what they do, they can make a buck. There is just a price to pay.

There shouldn't be any labels. There shouldn't be "pimps," or "johns" or "brothels" or "corporations." There shouldn't be any "titles" It should be a free market...and individuals should be their own LLC's.... just walking around asking random people if they wanna buck.

[Urbanized]

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it.

[BBatesokc]

I appreciate the conversation and the contribution of Brian Bates on this thread but this post conflicts with my recollection of events. Wasn't Mr. Bates arrested and convicted on felony conspiracy to engage in prostitution charges after hiring prostitutes to entrap men into soliciting prostitution while Mr. Bates filmed. I thought that there was an agreement with a national television show to buy the film and the disruption of that arrangement among other issues led to retribution against Police Chief Citty where Mr. Bates posted his private info such as address and phone number online etc...
My concern is that shame in this case is not just being used as a deterrent but as a means to profit and more recent efforts to film encounters with a drone may breach the same issues in addition to any potential violation of FAA/city rules.

Your recollection of events is absurd to say the least......

The charges were dropped (3x actually) - First when the judge threw them out. They were refiled and then the DA himself dropped them. Then they went to a grand jury and were eventually dropped all together after the mother and sister of the accuser came forward to testify in my defense because she had admitted to them she had made it all up thinking she could sue and make money. On the day of the hearing they agreed to drop all the charges if I would plead guilty to any misdemeanor of my choosing. I literally had to provide the misdemeanor because the DA (from another county) couldn't come up with one and was told by his boss they couldn't drop the charges without some sort of concession on my part. After recessing for some time, the only thing I could come up with was that I sometimes don't turn the tapes in from the busts. The DA agreed to call that misdemeanor obstruction of justice. For whatever reason it didn't fit the elements of the crime so they changed it to obstruction of a police officer. Even the judge questioned the validity of that being an actual offense (would be like charging the cashier of a 7-11 with a crime for not turning over a tape of a shoplifter). Regardless I agreed to it because its true - so true in fact that I intentionally still don't turn some tapes over. And I do it with the full confidence they will never charge me with it. The case was later expunged and deleted from all court and police records.

So, yeah, your assertions of felony conviction is a bit off to say the least. You have also choose to not recollect that the DA at the time was chomping at the bit to find anything to charge me with because of the police beating I taped and my very public negative stance towards the DA's office for sometime thereafter. Even a ADA who left the DA's to work out of state publicly acknowledged to the media it was a witch hunt and far too many resources were spent on a personal vendetta. DA Lane paid for a study out of his re-election fund to find out why he lost the election. I have a copy of that study (provided to me by someone friendly to me in his campaign). The study found that the charges he brought against me (and my wife) were a major contributor to why he was not re-elected.

As for "an agreement with a national television show to buy the film" - not sure what you are talking about. I do and have licensed my footage to nationally and internationally productions companies for almost 20-years. A national film crew is coming to OKC later this month in fact. DA Lane eluded to my contracts with national and internationally media and even claimed to have an audio recording of me making these deals and making deals with hookers. I went on the news and told him to release those tapes if he had them, because I knew he was lying. During the discovery part of the case prosecutors admitted that there was no tape.

As for posting Police Chief Citty's address etc. - I've never known his home address or phone number - so, yeah. That never happened.

Its amazing how far off your 'recollection' is - I'm guessing its been tainted by some pretty heavy bias.

I've been using shame because its been shown to work to a measurable degree with the Johns and its one of the few things a citizen can do on their own. However, its really not so much shame as simply shinning a light on the reality of what goes on, raising public awareness, moving the social conscious and keeping the discussion going.

The fact I've been doing this to the degree I have without so much as suffering a scratch, never loosing a lawsuit and only being targeted once by prosecutors (and coming away better for it) is a pretty stellar record if you ask me.

[BBatesokc]

@Filthy,

The first part of the problem is, it appears you are talking about 100% consensual prostitution and the reality is that a measurable amount of prostitution is not 100% consensual. So, make your 100% consensual prostitution legal if you want, but don't do it thinking this "FREE MARKET" is going to positively impact non-consensual prostitution. And, because it won't positively impact non-consensual prostitution I'd never support it.

Also, keep in mind, I follow every single prostitution arrest in Oklahoma County. The overwhelming bulk of those arrests come from street prostitution, massage parlors, phone book, craigslist and Backpage (with Backpage being by far top on that list). There are literally dozens of 'higher end' websites that never experience any busts at all and are well known and monitored by local and state law enforcement. Those sites are member driven and are overwhelmingly the exact scenario you mention above (professional female by day, prostitute by night). You almost never even get hints of non-consensual prostitution happening (the members would report it in their 'reviews' and that sort of prostitution is frowned upon).

So, in reality, police already have decriminalized prostitution to some extent by allowing this higher end version to go unchallenged.

Regardless, the idea that it should be legal to simply solicit in public and then "get banged" in the mall parking lot is pretty out there.

[Filthy]

@Filthy,

And, because it won't positively impact non-consensual prostitution I'd never support it.

So, in reality, police already have decriminalized prostitution to some extent by allowing this higher end version to go unchallenged.

Regardless, the idea that it should be legal to simply solicit in public and then "get banged" in the mall parking lot is pretty out there.

Now, please understand that I don't have a leg to stand upon, when discussing this subject matter. I obviously don't know the "ins and outs," of prostitution like yourself, but just throwing out ideas, suggestions, and/or theories for the sake of discussion. I guess I don't understand how or why this wouldn't impact the "non-consensual" prostitution. I would think that it would immediately make it a profitless endeavor for your typical "street" pimps. But once again...I have NO idea how the inner workings of all of this really goes.

I would just guess that the market value/and or the profit margins to be made off of a washed up crack whore, would all but disappear if your cliental can just go legally bend over some Edmond soccer mom for a few hundred bucks anytime they so choose.

[Urbanized]

Man, you're really earning your handle in this thread, Filthy...

[Filthy]

Man, you're really earning your handle in this thread, Filthy...

I aim to please

[BBatesokc]

Now, please understand that I don't have a leg to stand upon, when discussing this subject matter. I obviously don't know the "ins and outs," of prostitution like yourself, but just throwing out ideas, suggestions, and/or theories for the sake of discussion. I guess I don't understand how or why this wouldn't impact the "non-consensual" prostitution. I would think that it would immediately make it a profitless endeavor for your typical "street" pimps. But once again...I have NO idea how the inner workings of all of this really goes.

I would just guess that the market value/and or the profit margins to be made off of a washed up crack whore, would all but disappear if your cliental can just go legally bend over some Edmond soccer mom for a few hundred bucks anytime they so choose.

The evidence of legalizations failure to solve the problem of non-consensual prostitution is everywhere when people stop listening to the anecdotes and start looking at the reality. Amsterdam has closed over 40% of its previously legal brothels because of the infiltration of pimps, human traffickers, and violence. A 2012 study from the London School of Economics and Political Science found that countries with legalized prostitution had a higher rate of human trafficking than countries where prostitution is largely prohibited. In 2013 Der Spiegel did an excellent 5-part investigative piece on how Germany's attempt to make prostitution safer through legalization failed. Switzerland in 2011 had to severely tighten its legalized prostitution laws because of growing citizen complaints and out of control infiltration of pimps, traffickers, and organized crime. And then there was the 2014 Washington Times feature on how the Swedish Model was mostly a myth when measuring its success.

Even with legal brothels about an hour away from Vegas, Vegas itself is still overrun with illegal prostitution.

All of this supports my belief that legalization as a solution is a myth.