Dr. Ed Shadid wants a conversation about legalized prostitution in Oklahoma City.

[Laramie]

OKC councilman says it's time to have discussion about legalizing prostitution | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

You don't have to have a ten foot pole (no pun intended) to discuss the merits of this 'thought provoking' question; many posters won't discuss the pros & cons about this debate.

Let's get serious!

Legalized Prostitution Debate | Debate.org

Time to sound off...

[Teo9969]

. . .
. . .
. . .

You've got to be kidding me.

[jerrywall]

Decriminalize protitutes, increase penalties for John's and Pimps. Many of those girls are victims and sex slaves. They're not the criminals.

Complete legalization is a bad idea though.

[Pete]

Would love to hear Brian Bates give his opinion.

[krisb]

Nothing wrong with having a conversation about how best to respond to adult sexual behavior and the consequences of policy thus far. While not exactly the same issue, the legalization of marijuana was once regarded in the same manner.

[Bellaboo]

Just an opinion, if it was regulated it would more than likely be safer in more ways than one. It's a big question though.

[Teo9969]

I'm probably for the legalization of prostitution.

But as a politician, being aware of your standing in the community and acting in a regard to try and raise that standing is of the utmost priority. Councilman Shadid is an asset to this community only if people take him seriously. He can have valid points and even be right about every single issue he raises, but that doesn't mean that every cross he chooses to die on is a wise one. And not that commentary during an interview is generally "dying on a cross", but when you're in Oklahoma, some subjects are just more prohibitive.

This was a poor political choice that, had this transpired before the most recent round of council elections, would have cost him a seat.

[Pete]

Just so you know, I seriously doubt Shadid will run for re-election.

[gopokes88]

Ok......seems like we have other things to focus on right now though.

[Teo9969]

Just so you know, I seriously doubt Shadid will run for re-election.

Even if we're not talking government, the politics of social figures matters, and I hope that Shadid continues to lend his voice in the community. But the community will only respect his voice on their grounds, however flawed those grounds are.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world…just unfortunate…this coming from someone who largely agrees with him.

[bchris02]

I agree that this was not politically smart for Ed Shadid. This is a subject that is so taboo that I don't think most people are ready to have a grown-up conversation about it. I agree with jerrywall in that prostitution shouldn't be fully legalized, but it should be decriminalized and the crackdown should be on the pimps.

[Bunty]

It isn't taboo with me. With some guys being too homely and boring to get a date, I have nothing against legalizing prostitution. And some men into their 80s or older want sex. What attractive woman would want anything to do with them? Few to none.

If prostitution can be legalized and regulated so it can be removed from streets and out of the hands of pimps and human trafficking , that's additional reasons going for it to legalize it.

Maybe legalizing could mean a run down motel could be remodeled into a big whorehouse. Customers walking by could pick out the whore they want by seeing them posing in the room windows. More likely to happen, though, would be Republicans at the state capitol passing a bill to ban towns and counties from legalizing prostitution.

[BBatesokc]

It's a difficult topic to have a serious conversation about because so many people have made up their mind using totally anecdotal 'evidence' (for and against), bring a heavy religious slant to their perspective or are so far removed from the reality as to have nothing really to contribute to the discussion. FYI - Being a 'John' or watching HBO's Cathouse does not make you a scholar on this topic.

Personally, I'd love one of the colleges to have a class (maybe an intersession) where you discussion the topic of legalization (pros/cons), have members of law enforcement, city government and even former sex workers provide guest speaker input and then the class go through the steps to do a mock legalization and actually see everything that would be involved and the ramifications. Its not as easy as changing the speed limit on I-35.

Its no secret, I've openly said for decades I'd personally support a level of decriminalization of certain forms of prostitution. Specifically, prostitution that is 100% private, consensual, AND unorganized. I would not however ever support legalization under any model I can currently conceive.

The problems with legalization are many. To start with, most people take a very narrow view when it comes to prostitution. They either see all prostitutes as victims or they see them all as consensual adults. Neither is true and you have to acknowledge and accept that to even begin the discussion.

I talk to public groups on a regular basis (colleges, church groups, civic groups, political groups, community organizations, etc.) and the issues brought up by Shadid are the same that are often thrown around with little regard to reality...

It will be 'safer' from a physical violence and sexual transmitted disease perspective.

You will find studies, articles and interviews that provide proof for whichever side of the fence you fall on in this regard. I read about this topic a lot and I've spoken to several women in this country and in foreign countries that work in a legalized system. What I've learned is that the prostitution industry is full of violence regardless if you work on the street or in a regulated brothel. Several countries with legalized prostitution have admitted to this fact and it is one of a handful of reasons over 40% of the previously open brothels in Amsterdam's red light district have been closed by the government. If you think pimps don't work girls in brothels, then you are sadly mistaken.

From a disease perspective you first have to realize that in the USA there is no real health concern, as the instances of STD's are the same as or even lower within prostitution circles as they are in the general population - with the occasional outbreak being reported in some cities. That being said, a large number of street prostitutes report being positive for various STD's.

Furthermore, there is nothing fair or safe about current legalization models when every form of legalized prostitution only requires that the prostitute be tested for disease. The male customer is never tested nor required to be disease free.

Lastly, most people don't realize that in Nevada STD tests are limited to weekly checkups for gonorrhea and Chlamydia and only monthly for HIV and syphilis. Both the prostitute and the John are open for exposure to disease within the windows of opportunity between tests and many STD’s like venereal warts and Herpes are not even tested for.

Don't criminalize the women, go after the 'Johns' and pimps

I see several problems with that stance. For one, it takes at least two to commit the act so why would one co-conspirator not be as legally culpable as the other as long as both are engaging in the act of their own free will? That's like saying drug dealing is legal, but buying it would not be legal (oversimplification - but you get my point). Many people forward this position and then point to what is often referred to as the "Swedish or Nordic Model."

The problem is, very few people have actually studied this policy stance beyond mere headlines and very biased statistics. Studying the Swedish/Nordic Models has its own problems as there is very little real evidence to back up any of the positive claims. For one, most of their numbers are limited to street walkers only and only those within certain recognized zones of prostitution. Additionally, in 2011 the Stockholm police only had 8 officers that made only 42 attempts in an entire year to provide counseling and other help to prostitutes that 'might' consider leaving the profession. In 2009 you could speak to 42 prostitutes on S. Robinson alone in a matter of 4-5 days. I have video evidence of as many as 32 prostitutes working a 10-block area of S. Robinson all at the exact same moment in 2007.

Additionally, how do you want to "be fair" to women choosing to work as a prostitute and then support targeting their customers.

As far as targeting pimps.... Exactly how do you target pimps and human traffickers (there is a difference) without targeting the sex workers themselves in stings?

Even my stance of decriminalizing 100% private, consensual and unorganized prostitution would be tremendously difficult to implement. Exactly how would law enforcement know who is working consensually and unorganized without conducting stings targeting everyone? How would law enforcement uncover forced and child prostitution without simply responding to Backpage ads and targeting everyone?

I could go on for pages and pages, but honestly, this is one of those topics most people have already made their mind up about.

[BBatesokc]

Another sad reality is the fact that our local DA's office has a very hug-a-thug mentality when it comes to pimps and human traffickers.

I document the lax attitude of DA Prater's office often on my website....

You can read several examples of the reality of how pimps and child sex traffickers are dealt with in Oklahoma County at this link.

[Urbanized]

Full on legalization would surely GROW the industry, not shrink it. Prostitutes would move here from other places and local people who wouldn't otherwise consider being prostitutes would be more likely to be drawn in to the industry, and customers would travel here from places where it is illegal (nearly everywhere else). Normally I'm in favor of growing tourism, but that is the wrong kind of tourism. I also think you'd have more locals engaging as customers, which could victimize non-participants such as families and spouses.

Philosophically I'm not completely against the idea, which as has been pointed out basically involves consenting adults, etc. (though as mentioned can impact families), and could be taxed and regulated. But the actual practicality of doing it is suspect at best, and the unintended consequences would be enormous.

I think it's much more likely that we'll see weed legalized in my lifetime.

[Laramie]

Will need to do more research on this. Brian Bates has a wealth of knowledge about the subject. Occasionally see him working out at the Downtown YMCA. He was my instructor at Cimarron College (bartending school) here in OKC. I got a chance to know more about the real Brian Bates, a genuine individual, family man who is a valuable asset to our community.

Legalization would have to include both women & men prostitutes to avoid discrimination.

As a Roman Catholic, it's sometimes difficult to remain focused on everyday teaching of my church & faith which sometimes conflict/clash when so much of the world and community revolves like musical chairs as individual rights hit the spotlight.

Not so sure that legalization would grow the industry to the point that there would be a significant impact with an influx of people moving to Oklahoma City; just wonder if there have been any impact studies completed since Clark County, Nevada's legalization of prostitution?

[jerrywall]

Don't criminalize the women, go after the 'Johns' and pimps

I see several problems with that stance. For one, it takes at least two to commit the act so why would one co-conspirator not be as legally culpable as the other as long as both are engaging in the act of their own free will?

Brian, I'm not even going to claim I have a 100th of the knowledge on this as you do. But, my answer to this is based on so many accounts of stories that interviews I have read from current and former prostitutes, the abuse and life that led them there, and while I know they're not ALL victims, it sure seems like so many of them are. Don't get me wrong, I agree you still would have to get the prostitutes off the street, but why are the ones who are the most abused and victimized the ones who seem to get the harshest penalties? As you pointed out, we seem to do a very poor job of punishing the pimps and the traffickers.

I read a great article from a legal prostitute from Nevada, and she talked about how many of the girls who worked as prostitutes there who were sexually abused from a very young age, passed around by their fathers, and other such horror stories. So while technically those girls are doing if of their own free will, it's more a result of their life that they are trapped in.

I think legalized prostitution will continue to add to the culture that women are property and can be treated as such. And if the strip club culture is any sign of what the culture would be like in legal brothels, it would be absolutely toxic for the women. I know someone who is a bartender at a strip club, and they've mentioned to me that it's not a matter of "if" a new stripper would end up doing drugs and such, but "when". The girls steal from each other, they're abused by the strip club owners, taken advantage of financially, and get no benefits. And the fact of the matter is the average person doesn't care, because "they're just strippers". I can't imagine people caring any more about the welfare of prostitutes.

[okatty]

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it and consider the very good points which can be made in terms of the possible benefits which might flow from a change in the way our society sees this issue. Enjoyed reading Brian's take.

Where would the De Wallen district (Amsterdam) be in OKC?

[hoya]

In the end, there's still a state law against prostitution in Oklahoma. Even if the city eliminated any regulations against it, you'd have to get the state legislature involved to really make it legal. I don't see that happening.

[BBatesokc]

I honestly love to debate this and similar topics. It gets my mind going, forces me to re-evalute my stance and educates me as to all perspectives.

To address a couple of the thoughts so far...

Full on legalization would surely GROW the industry, not shrink it. Prostitutes would move here from other places and local people who wouldn't otherwise consider being prostitutes would be more likely to be drawn in to the industry...

Would it 'grow the industry'? Most likely it would - to a degree. It would certainly entice individuals into the sex industry whom otherwise probably would not have. However, its obviously not too big of a draw because Nevada only has a few hundred legally licensed prostitutes in the entire state. Plus, the last time I checked there were only just around two dozen legal brothels operating (and the number tends to shrink each year, not grow). The negative impact on the state would depend on the level of legalization - Do we have large organized brothels and red light districts or do we only allow unorganized one-on-one commercial transactions in the privacy of one's home or motel room?

As far as the state's reputation and tourism.... Being known as the place to buy women is also a reason Amsterdam's legalized brothels are shrinking in number as opposed to expanding.

Having legalized prostitution in rural parts of Nevada certainly hasn't resulted in people clamoring to populate those areas because they see them as a financial mecca or a place to raise a family or retire.

I also think you'd have more locals engaging as customers, which could victimize non-participants such as families and spouses.

True. But the naysayers will point to alcohol, gambling, strip clubs, etc. and say those can be just as devastating on a family.

I think it's much more likely that we'll see weed legalized in my lifetime.

I agree. And, I'd vote for it!

Legalization would have to include both women & men prostitutes to avoid discrimination.

Absolutely. I tend to just speak of females engaged in prostitution only because I don't have nearly as much knowledge of male prostitution. Additionally, its been shown that male prostitution (servicing other males or females) is a tiny fraction of female prostitution. But it happens - both consensually and by force.

...just wonder if there have been any impact studies completed since Clark County, Nevada's legalization of prostitution?

Prostitution is illegal in Clark County (Las Vegas). Measuring the impact on the rural counties where it is allowed is hard to judge. Keep in mind, brothel owners only pay taxes to their county. The states only receives a tiny yearly licensing fee. Even the largest well known brothels report not paying that much in fees to their county. Its been awhile since I looked, but I can recall The Bunny Ranch only paying less than $80,000 to the county and maybe $20,000 to health officials. I recall some study that claims a county does make about 18-28% of its revenue from brothel fees. But, you have to put that into perspective (these are small rural counties). I'd guess a county may make no more than $500,000 per year if there are several larger brothels in their area.

Considering you don't see these counties expanding and growing at a rapid rate, I'd say the impact is modest.

Nevada though is a very good example of why legalization as a solution is a myth. Even with legalized brothels accessible in the state, illegal prostitution flourishes and grows annually.

...why are the ones who are the most abused and victimized the ones who seem to get the harshest penalties? As you pointed out, we seem to do a very poor job of punishing the pimps and the traffickers.

Well, I don't know if that's really true on average. I can point to individual cases where very abused girls did seem to get harsh penalties while others do not. On average I find that if you don't have a prior criminal record the worst you are looking at (as a prostitute or a John) is a deferred sentence and a small fine. Repeat offenders or those with priors tend to get a slightly harsher penalty (suspended sentences as opposed to deferred). It is almost unheard of for a prostitute to be sentenced to jail when her only offense is prostitution. When I do see jail sentences it is usually an attempt to zero out time already served because they couldn't or didn't make bond and simply stay in jail waiting to go before a judge.

That said, in rare instances, the system can still be very unfair towards victims.

I work very closely with two girls right now. One, "Stacey", was federally convicted of crimes related to being a child sex trafficker and the other, "Nicole", is a young woman who has 4 felony and 3 misdemeanor state cases for prostitution.

Stacey is 100% a victim. She lost her mother to cancer at a young age and was introduced to prostitution and drugs by the age of 12. She was handed off to pimp after pimp until just a couple of years ago (in her 20's) when she was busted in a sting. She was prosecuted federally for trying to lure a 17 year old female into prostitution. The 17yr old was an undercover cop. Court records clearly show Stacey was simply doing as she was told by her coward pimp who waited around the corner. Despite that fact she was still forced to plead guilty. The judge took pity on her and she received 10 years probation, while her pimp was sentenced to prison. However, she forever has a criminal record for being a human trafficker. I reached out to Stacey after her conviction through Facebook (did not know her previously). She accepted my offer to help and I introduced her to No Boundaries. From there we tried to show her the respect and love that she has never had before. I'm so proud of her. She got a job at a local sandwich chain, got her own apartment and I helped her to secure the funds to get a car - she had been walking and taking the bus to/from work, which took 2 hours each way. She recently got an even better job. While she is a fighter, the legal system has forever placed a burden upon her she will never shed.

Nicole was in her early 20's when her pimp was arrested and sent to prison. She used that opportunity to move out of state and go to college. She was trained in a health related field but later told by a school counselor her criminal record would mean she may never find a job in her desired field. She reached out to me because she knew me from Robinson and knew she didn't have to be embarrassed to speak to me about her situation. I told her about HB1058 and found her a lawyer that agreed to work on her behalf for free. I then secured the money needed to cover the fees to have her record expunged and sealed under HB1058 as a human trafficking victim. This is a case where recent changes in state law allowed for her to get a second chance - something Stacey will not qualify for because she was prosecuted federally. Nicole will hopefully soon be a single mom making $50,000 plus a year. Something she never before thought she could do legally. While HB1058 is great, there are still issues with it. Most victims don't know about it and are never told by prosecutors. When they do learn of it they often cannot afford it. You have to secure a lawyer, and even if you get a cheap or free one, there are the court fees. In Nicole's case the fees added up to over $3,000.

I read a great article from a legal prostitute from Nevada, and she talked about how many of the girls who worked as prostitutes there who were sexually abused from a very young age, passed around by their fathers, and other such horror stories. So while technically those girls are doing if of their own free will, it's more a result of their life that they are trapped in.

This is a very difficult concept for many people to get. Being sexually abused from a young age and a lack of parenting is often the key factor that leads women into prostitution. While some appear to be consenting adults, they are very much victims of circumstance. How culpable should they be held for their prostitution crimes? Its a case-by-case basis. But I certainly don't think we should offer it as an actual choice for our young people.

[Bunty]

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla.

I bet a lot of people said the same thing about casinos in Oklahoma during the 1990s. The church people would never allow such an immoral thing.

Surely, prostitution is against state law, so it's quite doubtful cities can fully legalize it. Even so, I won't be surprised if the state legislature would want to pass a law that would prohibit state cities and counties from legalizing prostitution.

[okatty]

I bet a lot of people said the same thing about casinos in Oklahoma during the 1990s. The church people would never allow such an immoral thing.

Surely, prostitution is against state law, so it's quite doubtful cities can fully legalize it. Even so, I won't be surprised if the state legislature would want to pass a law that would prohibit state cities and counties from legalizing prostitution.

Yes, but those came into existence as a result of the Federal gov't compact with the tribes. Diff deal here.

[adaniel]

All good points here. With that in mind, even as someone who is socially moderate-to-liberal, I cannot in any way shape or form support legalized prostitution.

Last year, a 2nd cousin of mine was hanging out with the wrong crowd. We had warned her several times to drop these people but she didn't listen....19 year olds think they know everything. We have never gotten a straight story but it went something like this: she bummed some money off of these so called friends of her. When it came time to repay it back, she didn't have it. So what do these friends of her do? Basically kidnap her, drive her to a terrible part of Dallas, and expect her to turn tricks until she pays off her debt. We were able to locate her before she did anything, but I have a feeling this is far more common. THIS is the reality of prostitution: the desperate sacrificing their own bodies, usually by force, as a means to an end. It is most certainly not a "victim-less crime." I don't see how legalizing this is somehow going to change it. If anything, it will just encourage it.

Also, as an aside, why does Ed Shadid constantly pick these unwinnable battles? There are so many things a more socially liberal voice could be used in OKC and this is the hill he wants to die on? I have long since given up on Mr. Shadid being more that a pot-stirrer, but as someone with high hopes for him at first, its still disappointing. I feel like posting that Tyra Banks clip here (We were all ROOTING for you!!).

[gopokes88]

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it and consider the very good points which can be made in terms of the possible benefits which might flow from a change in the way our society sees this issue. Enjoyed reading Brian's take.

Where would the De Wallen district (Amsterdam) be in OKC?

We as citizens can, but Ed is an elected official and I'd rather him not waste time on things that simply aren't going to happen. There's only so much time people will pay attention to local politics, and this is empty calories.

A good debate on what should be in MAPS 4 vs. GO bond is a better use of time.
How to form a private/public partnership to fund HSR from downtown okc to downtown tulsa is a better use of time.

[Mel]

One of the best threads I've read in awhile. Very thought provoking about a subject most folks don't want to even acknowledge.