Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[mkjeeves]

I love downtown too. What I don't love is the downtown zealots it's brought out of the woodwork. Public votes are a good thing and we approved of the MAPS programs so far. But the public can only do as much as what the leadership puts in front of them or what they force through grass roots efforts.

[betts]

The only way maps for neighborhoods is going to work, is if you put a little money into all areas for some sort of work. A lot of people get annoyed at seeing so much of the city ignored by maps programs and so much focused on downtown. I would argue that downtown's revitalization is a MAJOR player in bringing OKC to where it is today. But I can also appreciate the fact that even driving down roads in some sectors, is a major hassle because they're so bad. There are areas guaranteed to flood when there isn't much rain. We've got water and sewer lines that are still made from clay. The list goes on and on. These are the things that are TOTALLY unsexy to do, but are absolutely necessary to keep the city functioning. The same story is being told all over the U.S. with our aging infrastructure. All the pretty lipstick on downtown doesn't mean anything if the water lines can't keep your crapper flowing at home or your house floods when there's an inch of rain.

I think roads and sewer lines are better served by bond issues. To me, MAPS is quality of life/leisure time projects. Park creation and/or improvements and creation of gathering spaces in neighborhoods is a better use of the MAPS brand, IMO. And listening to Pete White, David Greenwell and Ed Shadid talking about an RTA in Council, I fully expect transit to be a big budget item on the next MAPS. Good transit is even better for neighborhoods than it is for downtown, especially with the streetcar covering the CBD, Auto Alley, Midtown and Deep Deuce.

[bradh]

I think roads and sewer lines are better served by bond issues. To me, MAPS is quality of life/leisure time projects. Park creation and/or improvements and creation of gathering spaces in neighborhoods is a better use of the MAPS brand, IMO. And listening to Pete White, David Greenwell and Ed Shadid talking about an RTA in Council, I fully expect transit to be a big budget item on the next MAPS. Good transit is even better for neighborhoods than it is for downtown, especially with the streetcar covering the CBD, Auto Alley, Midtown and Deep Deuce.

Good point, good transit from neighborhoods that brings people to the core that connects people to the attractions (via streetcar) is basically an extension of downtown to the neighborhoods. That's a win.

[hoya]

and yet, OKC suburbia is so poor it's been able to cough up a billion dollars to spend on its amusement park; has most of the jobs; residents and tax base that runs the city. How many more billions in subsidy does downtown want from the neighborhoods?

The suburbs, collectively, have a lot of people and money. No suburb individually is all that influential. And that's the deal.

mkjeeves, what makes you think that the voters in this city care about your neighborhood? Most of them never go over there, ever. Those that do just drive though it, and they make sure not to stop. Why should some people in Deer Creek want to spend their tax dollars fixing up an area they will never go? The answer is, they won't.

The only way maps for neighborhoods is going to work, is if you put a little money into all areas for some sort of work. A lot of people get annoyed at seeing so much of the city ignored by maps programs and so much focused on downtown. I would argue that downtown's revitalization is a MAJOR player in bringing OKC to where it is today. But I can also appreciate the fact that even driving down roads in some sectors, is a major hassle because they're so bad. There are areas guaranteed to flood when there isn't much rain. We've got water and sewer lines that are still made from clay. The list goes on and on. These are the things that are TOTALLY unsexy to do, but are absolutely necessary to keep the city functioning. The same story is being told all over the U.S. with our aging infrastructure. All the pretty lipstick on downtown doesn't mean anything if the water lines can't keep your crapper flowing at home or your house floods when there's an inch of rain.

The problem is, putting "a little money into all areas" won't fix any of the problems you name. It's going to cost billions to replace that much sewer and water pipe, and repave that much road. Multiple billions.

[mkjeeves]

The suburbs, collectively, have a lot of people and money. No suburb individually is all that influential. And that's the deal.

mkjeeves, what makes you think that the voters in this city care about your neighborhood? Most of them never go over there, ever. Those that do just drive though it, and they make sure not to stop. Why should some people in Deer Creek want to spend their tax dollars fixing up an area they will never go? The answer is, they won't.



The problem is, putting "a little money into all areas" won't fix any of the problems you name. It's going to cost billions to replace that much sewer and water pipe, and repave that much road. Multiple billions.

This has been asked and answered about a dozen times and dozen ways. Here's another way, everyone lives in their neighborhood. Log roll them like every other maps log roll, such that everyone gets something.

And, count on votes from good citizens who want to do the right thing. I voted for Maps money for downtown primarily because it needed doing. I voted for Maps for Kids primarily because it needed doing. I knew my only child wouldn't benefit at the time. Crazy huh?

[bchris02]

The problem is, putting "a little money into all areas" won't fix any of the problems you name. It's going to cost billions to replace that much sewer and water pipe, and repave that much road. Multiple billions.

Exactly. You could not fix up EVERY neighborhood. There isn't enough money to do it and if you try, it would make no impact whatsoever. In the end, a decision will have to be made as to which neighborhoods are important enough to the city to warrant large-scale public investment. I agree with mkjeeves that the suburbs collectively have made downtown what it is, but Teo is right in that some areas are too far gone to be worth the amount of investment it would take to revive them if it could even be done at all. Supporters of sprawl need to focus on how to prevent today's best suburbs from going the way of PC North in 20 years (and NW 39th in 40 years).

In addition, I also don't believe a MAPS package should be passed to do things the city should already be doing. For instance, expanding public transportation is a great use of the MAPS brand but fixing potholes and replacing sewer lines isn't.

[Urban Pioneer]

In addition, I also don't believe a MAPS package should be passed to do things the city should already be doing. For instance, expanding public transportation is a great use of the MAPS brand but fixing potholes and replacing sewer lines isn't.

GO Bond

[jerrywall]

Why should some people in Deer Creek want to spend their tax dollars fixing up an area they will never go?

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

[Teo9969]

RE The racist thing, just to be clear:

Flight of the 50s and 60s and probably 70s was extremely overt racism and continued systemically racism (see Redlining, FHA loans, and THIS article)

Later subsequent flight became less and less overt racism (I don't like black people) and more and more systemic (my property values are not increasing quickly/they're plateauing or the classrooms are not as nice as they once were etc. etc). And today it has more to do with people not liking the poor than not liking black people…but a disproportionate amount of black people are poor due to systemic racism that began in the 1700s and has been poorly addressed as a national issue ever since, so it ends up with a similar outcome.

So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude. Just pointing out that as a society, we made our development decisions based on these types of factors, and the results have proven to be disastrous if not deserved considering the questionable ethics by which the greatest/silent generation made these decisions.

[Filthy]

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

It would probably be splitting hairs, as he did say "some people." But, approx 60% of the student population/residents living in the Deer Creek school district, are actually in Ward 8, of Oklahoma City proper. This includes Gallardia, Lone Oak, Deer Creek Villages Etc..

[mkjeeves]

RE The racist thing, just to be clear:

Flight of the 50s and 60s and probably 70s was extremely overt racism and continued systemically racism (see Redlining, FHA loans, and THIS article)

Later subsequent flight became less and less overt racism (I don't like black people) and more and more systemic (my property values are not increasing quickly/they're plateauing or the classrooms are not as nice as they once were etc. etc). And today it has more to do with people not liking the poor than not liking black people…but a disproportionate amount of black people are poor due to systemic racism that began in the 1700s and has been poorly addressed as a national issue ever since, so it ends up with a similar outcome.

So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude. Just pointing out that as a society, we made our development decisions based on these types of factors, and the results have proven to be disastrous if not deserved considering the questionable ethics by which the greatest/silent generation made these decisions.

Since we're on the subject...charter schools, which have selective enrollment, are shown to have disproportional white/minority ratios compared to their counterparts in the same areas. What's our new downtown elementary?

So subsidize and gentrify an urban area making it largely unavailable to the poor and many minorities, a magnet for white flight, and drop a charter school in the middle of it and then tell everyone else how they are part of a racist system.

Your words:

Downtown proper, no. The inner-loop, yes. People who would have otherwise normally invested in a home in the PC North area, now have an option to invest somewhere South and East of the May and NW Expressway because of how quickly everything is improving. Homes can be comparable per square foot, and the difference is that many homes on the NW side are 1. On the decline 2. Stagnant in value and 3. Far away from amenities that are continuing to develop in the core, particularly as it pertains to entertainment.

Even 5 years ago, I'm not sure that your average OKC citizen really understood the value of living closer in, even if they're not living in downtown proper. Now it is a legitimate pull against people who might have otherwise chosen a more suburban lifestyle. @ 32nd and Villa, you frequently have better options, especially if you don't have kids or don't have to worry about their school district. Anybody who bought specifically for the district is white-flighting it.

[bradh]

I am pretty sure Rex is quite diverse, from the friends of ours who have kids there.

As downtown gets more housing with kids? May not be as diverse.

[hoya]

Well, MAPS isn't going to fix 300 years of racism. Sorry.

I'd say MAPS is one tool in the box for improving the city. And as the saying goes, when you have a hammer... Unfortunately, in this instance, the problems with the neighborhoods aren't nails. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen to fix NW 10th and Council, but just throwing $20 million down the drain over there won't do it.

It's not the MAPS money that revitalized downtown. That wasn't enough. It's all the private investment that followed. I don't think spending a small amount all over the city is going to do the same amount of good.

[hoya]

They also wouldn't be able to vote in a maps vote.

When you see me say "Deer Creek", please interpret that as "generic snooty white neighborhood".

[Teo9969]

Since we're on the subject...charter schools, which have selective enrollment, are shown to have disproportional white/minority ratios compared to their counterparts in the same areas. What's our new downtown elementary?

So subsidize and gentrify an urban area making it largely unavailable to the poor and many minorities, a magnet for white flight, and drop a charter school in the middle of it and then tell everyone else how they are part of a racist system.

Your words:

Also my words:

So, pahdz, you may not specifically racist, but you are playing part in a system that is. But we all do in various avenues of life, so I'm not knocking you or questioning you or anyone else's ethical fortitude.

And furthermore, the game is different: In sprawl, there are always moving goal posts. In the 90s, if you were on the bottom side of middle class, and possibly even lower class, maybe you make a move to the PCN area because at the time it was seen as an incredibly desirable school. Maybe you even buy in the PCN area, because you work hard enough to afford it or make certain sacrifices so that your kids have a good school/home to grow up in…but along come the 2000s and PCN starts to fall off and you made this investment that is not appreciating, and putting your kids in a school that is not what you once thought it would be.

At least with a strong core the rules don't change midstream. The core is on an upward trajectory for the rest of time (unless downtown is nuked), because the core of the city is historically (save for the brief 50 year post WWII, American automobile era of sprawl development) always among the most valuable property in the city. The difference is if you can get ahold of a Gatewood home right now, it's not going to have a 30 year window of desirability like homes @ NW 50th and Meridian had or like NW 122nd and Rockwell is finishing out today.

Gentrification has its faults, and they will no doubt negatively affect the poor and minorities, but it won't be a tease to a better life the way that sprawl has been for many people from less fortunate circumstances trying to catch the American Dream that will never be a reality for them. Eventually OKC public schools will come around when the tax-base rejuvenates and that will greatly help out the large demographic base of blacks and latinos that currently attend these schools…especially on the south side of the metro which will not gentrify nearly as quickly.

[mkjeeves]

Well, MAPS isn't going to fix 300 years of racism. Sorry.

It sure didn't. I had no expectations it would.

I'd say MAPS is one tool in the box for improving the city. And as the saying goes, when you have a hammer... Unfortunately, in this instance, the problems with the neighborhoods aren't nails. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen to fix NW 10th and Council, but just throwing $20 million down the drain over there won't do it.

It's not the MAPS money that revitalized downtown. That wasn't enough. It's all the private investment that followed. I don't think spending a small amount all over the city is going to do the same amount of good.

The best thing that's happened to the area over the decades is the private money spent from Council to Mac along I-40. The trails from 10th street north by Overholser are a great asset and get lots of use as well. That two or three mile stretch is a good example of spending that improved an area. Some people from my neighborhood and beyond walk and bike to it and some people from all over drive to it. And 10th has actually seen some improvements in recent years. I'm optimistic.

[Teo9969]

mkjeeves,

We can go round and round for the next two weeks on this subject, I'm sure. I feel like you perceive that I'm anti-investment in non-core parts of our city. The truth is I'm not. What I am against is wasteful use of tax money. To fix the box between I-40, Kilpatrick, NW 39th/Rte66, and I-44, we need so much money. Certainly not short of a $500M injection, and probably closer to $1B+ just to get STARTED. That area is one of 10 or so other boxes around the city that need this kind of money to fix. And after that injection, a far smaller number of people would be enjoying the fruits of this investment, than anything we make in the core of the city, especially downtown.

We all get to watch the Thunder, if not in the arena, on the television, and feel pride for our city. You helped build that with your sales tax money, and you deserve to feel that pride. You can go walk the canal, you'll be able to come enjoy the central park…and you're about as far away as the people @ Sunny Lane and SE 59th. If the city comes in and EDs the SW corner of MacArthur and invests $250M to urban retrofit this area, and then drops another $500M on connectivity to this urban center via a sidewalk system to various neighborhoods and transit, and another $250M on Parks and roads….the only people that benefit are the couple 10k that live in and around this area.

And would it be a bad way to spend our money? Not necessarily…but if I do live on SE 59th and Shields, and I don't get my areas retrofit project for another 25 years, why would I be okay with this?

But $50M going to that same 44/40/KTPK/R66 box…that's pissing money away. It will do effectively nothing to help out the residents of the area, let alone the citizens of OKC.

[hoya]

It sure didn't. I had no expectations it would.



The best thing that's happened to the area over the decades is the private money spent from Council to Mac along I-40. The trails from 10th street north by Overholser are a great asset and get lots of use as well. And 10th has actually seen some improvements in recent years. I'm optimistic.

Well, the best thing for your area, long term, is for the cycle of sprawl to stop. As long as "the" place to build new homes is on the outskirts of town, investment won't return to the 1960s-70s ring of development. Not enough to make the area nice again.

Downtown isn't the enemy of the suburbs. Future suburbs are the enemy of the suburbs.

[hoya]

The only good reasons I see to have a MAPS for Neighborhoods are these:

-If there are several, easily fixable, problems in multiple neighborhoods around the city
-If it satisfies the naysayers and boosts support for the next MAPS
-If it doesn't delay a regional mass transit system by too much

Tearing down those rat-hole apartments on 10th, burning them to the ground, and replacing them with a senior center or a public library might not be a bad idea. Just to get rid of them. Doing that for a half-dozen places all over town, and then throwing some money at sidewalks and trails, that might be okay. It's not going to generate a huge amount of revenue for the city. It won't be an investment that will pay off anywhere close to the Chesapeake Arena. But it might be a good idea to clean up some crap.

Neighborhoods aren't going to see anywhere close to the kind of investment that downtown got, or the return that downtown got. There are just too many neighborhoods. We've spread ourselves too thin.

[Filthy]

When you see me say "Deer Creek", please interpret that as "generic snooty white neighborhood".

....and by "generic snooty white neighborhood," I assume you mean a community that consists of a high concentration of people of wealth, power, and political influence within our city? Just want to make sure I read you loud and clear.

[Laramie]

Some MAPS projects will produce revenue; others will not.

We need to look at the overall MAPS scheme:

1. Improve the quality of life aspects which reflects a better image of Oklahoma City.
2. Private development growth has more than tripled the revenue invested.
3. Projects are debt-free upon completion.

More attractive our city becomes; the better chance to keep & retain the corporations we have; also to lure corporate divisions like the GE Research Center.

As our sales-tax base increases through growth; it generates more money to expand items like public safety & city services.

[hoya]

....and by "generic snooty white neighborhood," I assume you mean a community that consists of a high concentration of people of wealth, power, and political influence within our city? Just want to make sure I read you loud and clear.

Yeah, you got it.

[krisb]

My kids go to John Rex and we are pleased with the level of ethnic and socioeconomic diversity. I am a huge proponent of investing in public neighborhood schools, but after four years of doing just that with our neighborhood school we became frustrated that the needle was not moving largely due to powers outside of our control.

[turnpup]

Just to clear up any misconception about charter schools...charter schools do not have "selective enrollment" as some of you might think:

OSCN Found Document:Eligible Students - Discrimination

[betts]

Part of the problem with OKC's outer neighborhoods is that they don't have a gathering place/area. The appeal of the Plaza District, the Paseo, Capitol Hill, 23rd St. are the core of buildings suitable for retail that create a common area for people to gather and recreate. I see those same types of neighborhoods in Chicago making the area very desirable for homebuyers. It's great to walk to Southport, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park to shop, dine, listen to music. It recreates small town living in the city. Because of cars and shopping centers, newer(60s and newer) neighborhood don't have that restorable core that is so appealing nowadays. Perhaps there is a way to create something in a few selected neighborhoods to make a gathering place, be it a park with an adjacent public library, stop for streetcar or light rail that might generate some development to make a neighborhood more than simply where you sleep.