OG&E Energy Center

[traxx]

I've been a little out of the loop on this but have read several of the recent posts on this thread.

Am I correct in assuming this project is either severely stalled or dead?

[Pete]

Severely stalled is probably the best way to put it.

[bchris02]

According to Steve's chat this morning, he seems to think talks are moving forward between the city and OG&E. He believes that south parcel is completely dead but he says we may be looking at two towers. Here is exactly what was said.

"Steve Lackmeyer: 11:05 AM That said, negotiations went badly between Clayco and the city, and it is now OGE Energy Corp. that is now at the negotiation table with the city. Those talks are ongoing. The two sides are closer to an agreement on TIF for the OGE tower. But I really think the south half of this development is dead, and that at best we're back to looking at just two towers. And quite honestly, that might be for the best - I never understood how so much office and high-rise housing space could be absorbed by the market."

Honestly at this point, I think any news that something may be built at all is good news for this project.

[soonerguru]

Honestly at this point, I think any news that something may be built at all is good news for this project.

I think this is precisely what the folks behind this want you to think. They are playing a long game.

[Rover]

I think it was a mistake to lump the north and south parts together in the first place. It expanded the scope to such a large development as to make it impractical to develop densely, fully, and all at once. It almost made it a necessity to ask for a large subsidy of some sort. Of course, that means that doing what should have been done in the first place, focusing just on the SC site, seems like a disappointment. By trying to make something so grand and so immediate we made it unrealistic. Let's get the OGE and residential tower built as well as it can be and then worry about the south half. Sometimes when you try to jump too far you just land on your face.

[bchris02]

I think it was a mistake to lump the north and south parts together in the first place. It expanded the scope to such a large development as to make it impractical to develop densely, fully, and all at once. It almost made it a necessity to ask for a large subsidy of some sort. Of course, that means that doing what should have been done in the first place, focusing just on the SC site, seems like a disappointment. By trying to make something so grand and so immediate we made it unrealistic. Let's get the OGE and residential tower built as well as it can be and then worry about the south half. Sometimes when you try to jump too far you just land on your face.

Right.

In hindsight I wish Milhaus would have been awarded the south site. Everyone here, including myself, was salivating over the Clayco rendering, but had Milhaus been awarded the south parcel it would probably already be under construction and secondly, it would have provided some park-front housing. The Milhaus proposal was also more realistic (though not as ambitious). Myriad Garden is such a great park it will be a real shame if housing doesn't end up fronting it at least somewhere.

[OKCRT]

So I assume it's back to the low rise 10 story building for OG&E. What a waste of prime real estate IMO. Typical OKC.

[HOT ROD]

Rover said it best, Clayco expanded the scope of the project and made it unworkable. Let's just focus on the Stage Center block, in reality - they could develop four towers on it if they must have four towers. There was no reason to create another superblock even if it was to have four towers.

To Bchris, I disagree about the milhaus proposal, I think it did not add density to that block, essentially taking an entire block for one tower and a parking garage? There are much better, smaller parcels of land downtown that would accommodate that development much better.

I reality, I think both proposals were stupid to begin with because both were unrealistic (over promise on one, under deliver on another). Clayco should have just been awarded the stage center block, develop two or more towers on it. Come up with a realistic TIF request that puts all parking under ground with retail on the first and second floors and you very likely will get buy-in from all stake holders involved. Build at least one tower above 500 feet and you will no doubt get nearly every fan on this board, especially if the towers are built to the corners with no setbacks!!.

[hoya]

Hot Rod, I wanna have your baby.

[Pete]

I don't think Clayco's plans for the south parcel in any way impacted their ability to perform on the north parcel.

They were in way over their heads from the beginning and now that the south parcel is pretty much off the table, they still aren't making any progress.

Remember, all four towers were to be built completely separately and they can't even get one off the ground.

[Richard at Remax]

I wish the local media would start putting Rainey Williams feet to the fire and ask the hard questions. I guess my top question would be "Why did you not disclose from the beginning that your project needed the highest amount to off TIF requested ever to even become a reality?" Also, "why do you even need that much when you already have a corporation that is going to be a primary tenant of the building?"

Im a pretty optimistic person and even I am disgruntled over this debacle. Someone needs to be held accountable.

[Anonymous.]

Has there actually been anything solid in terms of a source claiming that this deal is crumbled to pieces or is it still speculation?

[Pete]

Has there actually been anything solid in terms of a source claiming that this deal is crumbled to pieces or is it still speculation?

There is no pending TIF action, i.e. a recommendation by the Alliance for an amount to be approved by the City Council.

No building permit application.

Also, hearing that now OG&E is trying to negotiate directly with the City for TIF and that the powers that be do not want to give them a cent, mainly because their request lacks any real justification other than "we don't have enough money".


I suspect there will ultimately be a compromise where they get some TIF money but not nearly what they've been asking for.

[Spartan]

They need to negotiate with the city by asking the city what they want to see across from the park. Then untidy TIF that way. I agree pure HQ mid-rise w a lead tenant has no risk at all and doesn't deserve subsidy..

I wish the local media would start putting Rainey Williams feet to the fire and ask the hard questions. I guess my top question would be "Why did you not disclose from the beginning that your project needed the highest amount to off TIF requested ever to even become a reality?" Also, "why do you even need that much when you already have a corporation that is going to be a primary tenant of the building?"

Im a pretty optimistic person and even I am disgruntled over this debacle. Someone needs to be held accountable.

It seems like they're trying but he won't answer their calls

[BDP]

To Bchris, I disagree about the milhaus proposal, I think it did not add density to that block, essentially taking an entire block for one tower and a parking garage?

I'm starting to think that might actually be the new design standard for anything built around the Myriad Gardens.

[Pete]

The Milhaus proposal was very rushed because developers only had 90 days to respond to the RFP.

Remember, Clayco already had detailed plans and then OCURA decided to put on a super quick RFP and no one else really had time to put together a meaningful response, which is why there is was only one other group to apply.

[Urbanized]

The question is, in light of the current economy, would responses be worthwhile if a new RFP were issued today?

[Pete]

The property is going to be used for the convention hotel, so it really doesn't matter now.

[shawnw]

You say that as though it's been definitively decided (and by "the property" I presume you mean clayco/south is where the conv hotel is going). I didn't see anything like that in the convention hotel thread. Did I miss a post? Can you please update that thread with the latest info?

[Urbanized]

I think he just means that it is by far the presumptive choice, and I agree. I thought about that when asking my question, but mostly just wanted to ask it as an exercise. Would better (or any) projects be proposed on that or a similar property if an RFP were issued today?

[shawnw]

Oh okay. Seemed more definitive, just figured I missed it being announced on here somewhere.

[Spartan]

The question is, in light of the current economy, would responses be worthwhile if a new RFP were issued today?

It wouldn't be Class A office space. That said, just about every single city but OKC is developing high-rise apartments now.

[zookeeper]

Just watching the Kings and Queens of Oklahoma City play chess.

[DenverPoke]

It wouldn't be Class A office space. That said, just about every single city but OKC is developing high-rise apartments now.

Agreed, it is pretty amazing in the current downtown building boom going on across the country that someone hasn't tapped into the OKC market for an apartment tower or 2.

One would think a luxury tower would pencil out in the $2-2.25 sq/ft range. What are the rental rates going to be for some of the new developments like Steelyard or LIFT?

[Architect2010]

It wouldn't be Class A office space. That said, just about every single city but OKC is developing high-rise apartments now.

Curious. Why do you think that is? Besides the current economy, OKC's downtown housing market seems robust. Does it have to do with our large glut of empty lots and lack of continuous density? Roght now, it seems building up past 5 stories isn't yet thr standard. Or maybe developers are keeping eye on the current stock of under construction apartments to see how the market fares once they're all completed? What do you think? How do we compare to the other cities building highrise housing.