Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[bchris02]

NW Expressway is already on its way. I don't see the decline for Memorial coming for a good while...if at all.



PC North is literally a sh*t show, compared to what it was even 10 years ago. The PC district as a whole is deteriorating at an alarming rate.

Edmond schools have also started this decline. They are probably 8-10 years away from PC Schools, in their rate of decline.

This is what sucks about suburbs, especially in places like OKC that don't have geographical barriers. Top-notch areas 15 years ago are now becoming blighted. Today's "in" neighborhoods like west Edmond and Deer Creek will likely be a serious problem by 2035. Meanwhile the metro will be sprawling towards Guthrie and out towards Arcadia as they become the preferred places to live, creating even more infrastructure for the city to [poorly] maintain while placing a larger burden on the taxpayer. It's simply unsustainable.

[OSUFan]

Cart before the horse. We need the vision first and then if tax and spend would help, decide what and how. Some people are talking about the vision for better neighborhoods and that's a good start.

I would just think if you are adamant that no more money is spent on the inner core until other areas of the city are addressed it would be pretty easy to rattle off 3 or 4 of those needs.

[Filthy]

Today's "in" neighborhoods like west Edmond and Deer Creek will likely be a serious problem by 2035.

Wow! Its crazy to think, that these pockets of $400,000-$600,000 homes, will be so bad. Do you think kids will be able to safely go outside, and play on their 1-3 acre lawns? If they're going to be a serious problem, what will the current "problem areas" be like? War zones? Complete Armageddon? I hope were not looking at Mogadishu type situations for 122nd/Rockwell.

Hopefully these worst case scenarios can be avoided by building some sidewalks at NE 12th and Prospect.

[mkjeeves]

I would just think if you are adamant that no more money is spent on the inner core until other areas of the city are addressed it would be pretty easy to rattle off 3 or 4 of those needs.

When I run out of things to do, I'll find you the thread(s) where we had a pretty good discussion about the overall issues and what might be done about it. The people in the video are making a good start.

[mkjeeves]

Meanwhile, here's something related to think about. The worst property in the city and the plan right out of the city's mouth is we can't afford to do anything about it.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...th-street.html

[bchris02]

Wow! Its crazy to think, that these pockets of $400,000-$600,000 homes, will be so bad. Do you think kids will be able to safely go outside, and play on their 1-3 acre lawns? If they're going to be a serious problem, what will the current "problem areas" be like? War zones? Complete Armageddon? I hope were not looking at Mogadishu type situations for 122nd/Rockwell.

Hopefully these worst case scenarios can be avoided by building some sidewalks at NE 12th and Prospect.

Who would have thought 15 years ago that the Putnam City school district would be a marginal district and especially that the PC North area would be in the shape its in today? Who would have thought you would have people saying that the Edmond district is 8-10 years away from deteriorating? While yes there are $500,000 mansions going up in west Edmond there are also $150,000 tract homes and lots of suburban apartments, which may be prone to future blight if the past trends continue. How can the city prevent these areas from going the way of the NW Expressway or 122nd and Penn?

If you want an example of how bad deteriorating suburbs can get, simply look to NW OKC west of I-44 and south of NW 39th Expressway and parts of Bethany, especially around Lantana Apartments. I am sure there are some decent neighborhoods within that area but the area as a whole doesn't have the best reputation.

[the michigander]

If u are talking neighborhoods I think a investment on 29th st and i240 would be a good thing. Being that is where the majority if the Hispanic population is and probably the fastest growing part if the city.

[OSUFan]

So off the top of your head you can't list one specific project in the outer core that is critical before you think another dollar should be spent on the core of the city? That seems very odd to me for some one who is so adamant the inner core shouldn't see any more investment before the burbs get their cut.

[Just the facts]

$500 million spread across 650 sq miles is only $770,000 per sq mile. What could one possibly do with that amount that would in any way be impactful; Repave a 1/4 mile of streets, lay 2 miles of sidewalks, mow a city park for 3 years?

[mkjeeves]

$500 million spread across 650 sq miles is only $770,000 per sq mile. What could one possibly do with that amount that would in any way be impactful; Repave a 1/4 mile of streets, lay 2 miles of sidewalks, mow a city park for 3 years?

^ The argument why MAPs 4 Neighborhoods shouldn't be split with large building projects and why MAPs 5 Neighborhoods should be a continuation of MAPs 4.

(Besides the fact we don't need any more large building projects anyway.)

[BoulderSooner]

Maybe I'm reading the Central OK-GO Summary incorrectly.

It says "Street car": $610-$830M for the N2 route which is the one they selected. Is that if they were going to run the street car all the way up to Edmond?

Right that number is for the hybrid of street car/rapid street car LRT all the way to Edmond.

Capital cost for the route to classen curve chk was estimated at a little over 80 mil in 2013

[Just the facts]

MAPS money should be for transformative projects that inhance the quality of life, not to bridge a funding gap for routine maintenance or to make up for a lack of collective class by sprawling suburbanites. It is possible the MAPS brand has run its course.

[Mr. Cotter]

I would be ready to pay a marginally higher permanent tax to better fund civic operations and have more access to quality of life amenities. Not everything can be improved with capital spending, operations funding is also needed. Let's mow the city parks weekly, let's fill potholes that are currently too small to demand attention, let's put sidewalks on pedestrian routes, let's build out a public transit system that serves the people in an efficient and comfortable manner, let's staff our police department to account for the increased population, let's hire enough code enforcers to make our neighborhoods a safe and attractive place to come home to. That's what I want my city to do. Not everything good is big enough to have naming rights, a commemorative plaque, or be featured in travel literature.

[Just the facts]

That is the problem OKC is just now starting to realize Mr. Cotter. OKC is a high maintenance city and it requires an enormous amount of tax dollars to keep it going.

[bchris02]

I would be ready to pay a marginally higher permanent tax to better fund civic operations and have more access to quality of life amenities. Not everything can be improved with capital spending, operations funding is also needed. Let's mow the city parks weekly, let's fill potholes that are currently too small to demand attention, let's put sidewalks on pedestrian routes, let's build out a public transit system that serves the people in an efficient and comfortable manner, let's staff our police department to account for the increased population, let's hire enough code enforcers to make our neighborhoods a safe and attractive place to come home to. That's what I want my city to do. Not everything good is big enough to have naming rights, a commemorative plaque, or be featured in travel literature.

Ding Ding Ding. Exactly!

[Teo9969]

I don't disagree with the investing in the inner core one bit and agree with it.

I vehemently disagree with the group think on this board that nw expressway and memorial are going to go south.
First not everyone wants to live in the urban core. There is a ton of people who prefer the semi suburb life. Quick access to the core without some of the cores problems.

Second there is a ton of businesses along memorial and nw expressway that employ a lot of people. Good jobs too. There is something very appealing about a 10 min drive to work while also having quick access to anywhere else in the city because of the nearby freeways. A good chunk of the people this city love private schools so the district doesn't even matter as much. For those that don't Pc north and Edmond schools are good plus charter schools are an option.

40 years ago, people were saying the same thing about 39th Expressway.

I graduated North in '06. Came back several times over the following 6-8 years and saw my Spanish I/II teacher who had become the college admissions adviser. Around '12 she was telling me about how drastically everything had changed and how far PC North has slid in the 5ish years since I graduated. She said parents are less involved, kids come from poorer backgrounds, and the quality of student has dropped tremendously. She said that we were one of the last great classes to go through North.

I've periodically done research into how real-estate in the PC North area has done over the last 30+ years, and while some properties have done quite well (usually the properties that were the most valuable to begin with that most people never would have been able to afford back then), the majority haven't even kept up with inflation.

My grandma passed away last year and we sold their house that they purchased @ $85k in 1985 for a whopping $100k. Inflation alone should have increased the value to $188k+, but alas, the property would have had to sell for $116 per square foot, something only the nicest of properties in that area of town can bring.

These are the neighborhoods that predominantly feed NW Expressway. And they can't even keep up with inflation? How is this *not* a recipe for NW Expressway go the way of 39th St? I mean, 39th is not a bad street really, but it certainly doesn't beat Western Avenue in terms of the value that it brings to the city. NW Expressway isn't going to become a barren land, but what will be the quality of the businesses along that stretch? What will be the state of property values in 5, 10, 15 years? What will be the employment and education opportunities there?

Do communities that develop on the fringe really continue to believe that they are immune from the same issues that befell PCO/Warr Acres? Midwest City? Moore?

[Teo9969]

Right that number is for the hybrid of street car/rapid street car LRT all the way to Edmond.

Capital cost for the route to classen curve chk was estimated at a little over 80 mil in 2013

So certainly not near the $700M+ figure I was thinking (Which is super exciting to me), but I found this:

The North Corridor, providing a one-seat ride between downtown Edmond and Norman, with service to the Oklahoma City Santa Fe Station Intermodal Hub, was recommended to be served by commuter rail. The existing BNSF right-of-way would be utilized wherever possible along the 14-mile alignment. Additionally, a five-mile extension of the Oklahoma City streetcar is recommended to run along Classen Boulevard between NW 10th Street and Walker Avenue to NW 63rd Street to provide a connec- tion to a future commuter rail station near the Chesapeake Energy campus. Capital costs for commuter rail are estimated between $260 million and $360 million, with the streetcar route expansion estimated between $270 million and $370 million. Ongoing operating and maintenance costs are estimated at $5 million per year for the commuter rail and $2.5 million per year for the streetcar extension. Commuter rail ridership for the entire North/South Corridor (between Edmond and Norman) is projected at approximately 5,700 daily riders. For the extension of streetcar service to the rail station near the Chesapeake Energy campus, daily ridership is ex- pected to reach about 2,100.

Even if it were $400M to build the extension, making that investment would show the other metro area cities that we are serious about moving forward toward a more comprehensive public transit system and should make the RTA more of a reality.

[bchris02]

Do communities that develop on the fringe really continue to believe that they are immune from the same issues that befell PCO/Warr Acres? Midwest City? Moore?

Great question and the answer is they are not immune. A generation ago it was 39th. Now its NW Expressway. 20 years from now it will be Memorial. Such is the nature of suburbia in OKC. It's disposable. It has a 20-25 year lifecycle and then the money moves on to the next "in" suburban neighborhood leaving yesterday's neighborhoods to rot from the inside out. There are a few exceptions to this but that is the general rule with suburbs here. This is why something like a MAPS package should be focused on building a stronger city for the future and one that will be sustainable, and that is best done in the urban core.

[Laramie]

All for transit & neighborhoods.

MAPS appeal has always been an initiative that bundled projects; you will not get everything completed with one MAPS initiative. Expect to keep the brand intact where the more projects you include the greater the appeal.

Transit will grow with each passage of MAPS; same with our neglected neighborhoods--you piecemeal these projects.

MAPS has charted its own success. You don't want to limit its scope to just 3 or 4 projects. Keep it a 7 or more.

[Filthy]

Great question and the answer is they are not immune. A generation ago it was 39th. Now its NW Expressway. 20 years from now it will be Memorial. Such is the nature of suburbia in OKC. It's disposable. It has a 20-25 year lifecycle and then the money moves on to the next "in" suburban neighborhood leaving yesterday's neighborhoods to rot from the inside out. There are a few exceptions to this but that is the general rule with suburbs here. This is why something like a MAPS package should be focused on building a stronger city for the future and one that will be sustainable, and that is best done in the urban core.

Maybe we could use MAPs money, to build a great big wall. Like maybe 20 feet tall...and border all of the nice areas/neighborhoods in the city. And then only allow access to these "special areas" to people of a certain race, social status, and or economic background. There could be armed gates, and people would have to have "access" cards to enter or exit. Then, maybe these areas would stay nice over long periods of time, and be free of this "suburban blight" disease that seems to infect OKC? Think this would work?

[Teo9969]

Look, I'm all for bettering neighborhoods, but that means picking and choosing which neighborhoods are worthy of investment, and it means changing the rules those communities have played by since they started developing.

To me, the only real way you could make the PC North area viable long-term is to completely re-imagine Rockwell Avenue between Hefner and 122nd. The development at both intersections would need to come down and be replaced with more density, higher quality development, and a major anchor business that is completely lacking in the community. What does OKC need to invest to make that happen? If you think $10M is going to do it, you're sorely mistaken. I'd guess we'd be looking at a lot closer to $200M ($100M for each intersection) just to get things started. You'd need private money to make a major impact as well.

So I guess you could try and run a maps where we raise $800M and give $200M to *a* community in each quadrant. But if you think the other 3 or 4 communities in each quadrant that aren't going to receive any subsidy are going to vote for that, forget about it.

At least if we pour another $800M of public money into the Grand Boulevard Loop, somebody at 122nd and Council can drive to 63rd and May to enjoy the fruit of their tax money rather than Reno and Walker.

[Just the facts]

I am still laughing at the idea that elementary school children aren't walking 3 miles to school because there aren't any sidewalks. Like crossing 6 lanes of 50 mph traffic and the sheer distance have nothing to do with it.

I wonder how all the home owners are going to feel about 5' of their front yards being taken over for public sidewalks. Since I suggested this to my homeowners association, I can tell you it was met with a resounding No.

[Jersey Boss]

I am still laughing at the idea that elementary school children aren't walking 3 miles to school because there aren't any sidewalks. Like crossing 6 lanes of 50 mph traffic and the sheer distance have nothing to do with it.

They aren't walking because it is 2015. Parents are charged with child neglect if they let their kids play in a park w/o supervision. The days of a free range childhood are nothing but a fond memory.

[Urban Pioneer]

I suspect that most public officials will say they are addressing many of the needs outlined in this thread in the upcomming 2016 GO Bond Issue. MAPS 4 itself will probably be in large part transit and connectivity oriented.

Of course in the middle of all of this is probably some sort of public vote on the jail.

There are some exciting announcements coming up.

[windowphobe]

If we tried to spread $500 million across 650 sq. miles no one would even notice.

I have no idea what it's going to cost to repave all our neighborhood streets and put down sidewalks, but it starts in a few weeks.